Effect of Light Clouds

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Effect of Light Clouds - 3/16/2019 6:01:43 AM

Whicker

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I can't quite figure out what Light meets in relation to clouds. Is it the same affect as heavy clouds? I would expect Light clouds - whether they are low, middle or high to mean that I can see most things. But in the game it seems the same as heavy clouds - things that I could see when it was clear (oil refinery) I can't see with light low clouds when I am above them.

Also, what is the best way to test this? what specific unit with which loadout? and which target?

is the effect the same for visual identity as it is for laser guidance?

Post #: 1

RE: Effect of Light Clouds - 3/16/2019 2:10:39 PM

KnightHawk75

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Take the following with grain of salt till devs or someone with more knowledge can reply with more clarity.

Assuming you're testing just cloud cover (and not also rain or non-daytime involved, or other weather factors) and were talking visual\IR\radar sensor on aircraft or weapon\sensor. It's something like 10% to 70% of normal range depending on alt of clouds and setting of clouds\fog.

Following seems to apply same to radar\infrared or laser des\ and visual (from what little I can tell)
setting 0 - clear sky no clouds. modifier not applied.
setting 1-3 70% [light low 5-7k;light middle 10-16k;light-high 20-23k]
setting 4-6 30% [moderate low 2-7k;moderate middle7-16k;moderate high 25k-28k]
setting 7 30% lower and 70% higher [moderate 7-16k + light 27-30k]
setting 8 10% lower and 30% higher [solid middle 7-16k + moderate 30-36k]
setting 9 20% lower and 10% higher [thin fog 0-2k + solid 7-36k]
setting 10 10% low and high. [thick fog 0-2k + solid cover 7-36k]

Keep in mind other modifiers could also apply before or after it.

Rain is something like (setting RainFallRate):
Visual and Radar(?):
0 no rain
1-10 90% of orig
>10 70% of orig
>20 50% of orig
>30 30% of orig
>40 20% of orig

Infrared\Laser:
0 no rain
>0 75%
>10 50%
>20 25%
>30 10%
>40 5%

I think TimeofDay (daytime(100%)\dust-dawn?(75-85%)\night(35-45%))is checked first, then rain is checked \added second, and then clouds ADD to whatever that prior calculus came out at in many cases, this of course above and beyond all sorts of other influences that could apply to reduce detection range\accurately\detection cycle etc. You should if the above is roughly accurate be able to see the oil refinery all things otherwise being equal (including near exact flight path) with clear skys at 100% of range, in light-clouds at 70% of typical range, and in dense clouds only at 10-20% of original range).

I have not field tested the above much. I also didn't even look at seastate or other factors like temp and pressure that could maybe also effect particular units\sensors\weapons used, the whole weatherprofile integration gets surprisingly extensive.

< Message edited by KnightHawk75 -- 3/16/2019 2:16:16 PM >

(in reply to Whicker)

Post #: 2

RE: Effect of Light Clouds - 3/16/2019 2:45:27 PM

stilesw

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From: Hansville, WA, USA
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KnightHawk75,

Great job on this analysis. I'll definitely be referring to it and using in future scenarios.

Thanks,

-Wayne Stiles

_____________________________

�There is no limit to what a man can do so long as he does not care a straw who gets the credit for it.�

Charles Edward Montague, English novelist and essayist
~Disenchantment, ch. 15 (1922)

(in reply to KnightHawk75)

Post #: 3

RE: Effect of Light Clouds - 3/16/2019 4:47:06 PM

Whicker

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Joined: 6/20/2018
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cool. One thing I don't like is that the first one is light low, then medium and then high. I wonder if the altitude is also factored in? If light high was the first one then 0 and .1 would have little effect. But with .1 being light low clouds, if your AC is at 36k I wonder how that part works as well. I have a feeling it is crippling - where as .3 is light high clouds is not so crippling but from a programatic perspective it is out of order.

what AC has a laser only guidance weapon that would have an issue with clouds? I keep getting LGB III that seems to not care so much about the clouds.

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RE: Effect of Light Clouds - 3/17/2019 2:24:22 AM

KnightHawk75

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Not sure I follow that first part exactly.

As for what your seeing, are you saying with a light-low cloud setting, and the unit up at 36k feet without (or even with) a special targeting pod your bombs will release around max range of like 8nm instead of something like say 5.6nm or not at all? As for a plane\pwyIII bomb combo with laser only that will not release with low-clouds (period) The f-117A is maybe a good example, unless paired with another 'painter' below cloud level I can't make it drop in a low-light-cloud situation at all.

I did quick sample with f-117 2003 version (generic IR 30nm and generic IR-targeting 10nm) and oil refinery on flat Iranian coast with f-117 inbound from sea at midnight on clear night, 5c, seastate 0, a non-autodetectable oil refinery, from 35 miles out fly in. Generic IR detected it at 2.9 miles, specs say it's 3.5nm IR head on, given I'm at 36kft at night at 350kts with couple second sensor detection time sweep..close enough. I moved the aircraft back to about 20miles out (to let targeting oda cycle complete) and let it continue to fly in again, I could fire at 8'ish miles as the weapons specs say for GBU-27/B LGB loadout. Time compression x1sec x2sec didn't much make a difference.

I repeated the the same as above (clearing the contact) then with clouds set to first setting, and 'f2' showing it as 'light-low 5-7k'.
detection: no detection of target at all @36k,25k,12k,9k,6k (above and inside clouds) flying over it.

detection: 5.6nm @4k feet alt (below the cloud layer)
releaseAuth: none - can't drop those bombs < 10k agl.

Post detection: climb to 10,200ft (bombs need 10k agl) imprecise\no reflection target because now IR systems can't see target for more than a cycle or two.

Result - You're not dropping those specific bombs on this target (day\night doesn't mater at all in my short test) because low clouds block your IR laser, and you can't drop below 10k with that loadout. Now the FA-18D's have gbu-24 variant that is basically same blu-109b but releases at 2k so you can
drop those starting at ~4999 agl, but even with that bird and the all-weather sensor IR pod I couldn't get it to drop above ~4900 ft, even ripped off the aas-38 and replaced it with better aaq-28v3 sensor pod and still no change.

However, and maybe this relates to why you don't have a problem sometimes. If someone else is down low laser-painting the target for your side (say your f-1117 wing man or the f-18 I spoke of, or anyone else with a designator\laser targeting package in painting range), then you can release (and I think always at max weapon range). I re-ran the small test with a f-117a to 10200 feet, f-18d 2002\2003 with pod detecting and painting at 4900ft in front. F-117 could release her gbu27/B load no problems (buddy illumination attribute on the weapon hinted me toward that), so long as I kept her buddy painting. As soon as he was out of paint range f-117 release was blocked again, same if I was say 5nm out when the painter connected and then I upped the rain from 0 to 25, causing a paint sensor range reduction to like 2nm, it would still eventually paint later (and enable the f117 drop) as it got closer in that case.

That all seems pretty legit to me, except maybe perhaps certain all-weather sensors you would think from description or stats could 'burn though' light-cover I guess can't (or are modeled not too regardless of range factor), or specs related to the actual munition capabilities kick-in regardless of any sort of range\accuracy modifier said pod might provide. Low-light-cloud cover does seems a little OP in that little test though when tied with supposedly all-weather pods, my guess is that is mostly by design though.

BTW just for kicks I did a couple more runs with low thin-fog + ~20 rain...with an even auto-detectable refinery and with those extremes even the buddy-painting was no go > 1k, and detection was lost on the detectable one >1kft on f-18\f-117 sample, so the worse weather certainly had a range effect on the painting and detection sensors, so it's not like sensor suites are non factor in the attack equation. The f35 suite for example could paint a bit farther away @ 500ft (~2nm) out during that thin-foggy low +light rain, where the others could not (I assume this is the 15nm vs 10nm on their designators suits coming into play). Nobody can paint it seems in low thick-fog, even 200ft off the ground over the target, or a guy on the ground with a laser 20 meters way. The last probably being entirely by design since does say 0 - 2k. Go one step up though to low-Thin-fog + 100% rain + hurricane seas, stuff can still technically be painted with a ground unit or certain air sensors once <300 meters away from target.

< Message edited by KnightHawk75 -- 3/17/2019 2:26:15 AM >

(in reply to Whicker)

Post #: 5

RE: Effect of Light Clouds - 3/17/2019 3:08:04 AM

Whicker

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great info, thanks.

The first part about the cloudiness order - 0 is clear, .1 is low clouds... so you are sort of screwed if clouds increases from 0 to .1 (more or less - you need to drop way down under them). I would think it would be better if .1 was light HIGH clouds as that would not really be a big deal. I'm just thinking about it from a simple code point of view - it is easy to increase/decrease a number incrementally via code, but I wouldn't really want the effect of going from 0 to .1 be so drastic to the player. I would rather this was more like:

0 - clear
.1 - light high clouds
.2 moderate high clouds
.3 light middle
.4 light low
.whatever by now you have problems with visibility.

so to write a more friendly script for weather (or more what I am trying to achieve) I probably need to not go in order which makes randomness harder. The order above is more or less what I would like to see when the weather changes from good to not so good. Maybe I need to put them into a couple tables where one set is not so bad and the other is all bad. Then I could choose a random setting from the not so bad ones if I wanted. or i could just put them all in one table in the order i want them to be and then use the tables index which would be in order. hmmm.

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RE: Effect of Light Clouds - 3/17/2019 3:35:27 AM

Whicker

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As I see it this is a better order from the players perspective of what hurts the most - from least to most. I think I'll just use this for order for randomness and I'll be good.

in this game .8 is really high on the spectrum, but the cloudiness isn't really that big a deal. Pretty sure would rather have .8 than .1 if you were trying to attack something.

{ [1] = { description = 'clear skies', value = 0 },
[2] = { description = 'light high clouds', value = 0.3 },
[3] = { description = 'moderate high clouds', value = 0.6 },
[4] = { description = 'light middle clouds', value = 0.2 },
[5] = { description = 'moderate middle clouds & light high clouds', value = 0.7 },
[6] = { description = 'solid middle clouds & moderate high clouds', value = 0.8 },
[7] = { description = 'moderate middle clouds', value = 0.5 },
[8] = { description = 'light low clouds', value = 0.1 },
[9] = { description = 'moderate low clouds', value = 0.4 },
[10] = { description = 'thin fog & solid cloud cover', value = 0.9 },
[11] = { description = 'thick fog & solid cloud cover', value = 1 } }

(in reply to Whicker)

Post #: 7

RE: Effect of Light Clouds - 3/17/2019 3:39:46 AM

Whicker

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course maybe I am not thinking about it right, your first post is maybe better and radar/IR is more what the issue should be? But it seems like if all you have to do is drop a bit of altitude to get under the clouds then it should be the same as clear?

Time to get an F117 going.

(in reply to Whicker)

Post #: 8

RE: Effect of Light Clouds - 3/18/2019 2:08:33 PM

KnightHawk75

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Joined: 11/15/2018
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Re: #5

Ah ok I see what you meant with the order intuitiveness from a user perspective for sort of typically what may be the least impact toward operations in common situations, and that yeah light-low (when it comes to LGB's) is definitely more a problem then light-high (at least from a 'release' pov). On the flip side if your dealing with primarily air battles light-low is probably less impact on your ops then say 2 separate chucks higher up, that might play havoc with fighter sensors\illumination\directors and remove advantages.

Re: #6 Depends on munitions involved really right? But under the LGB scenario yeah most of the time your right I'd probably rather take the harsher overall impact of a .8 and not have to get so low to release, while using the higher cover to help mask ingress\egress, but also depends on what I'm up against in getting to that target (that I now have to get closer too), and the sensors and units involved on the enemy side, and the wider impact a 8 might have overall vs anyone one given strike package. Seems to me outside of edges the impact of weather getting 'worse' or 'better' is mostly relative to what is trying to be accomplished in the given time-frame of the weather. A hurricane could be simultaneously both a godsend for one mission and a curse for others.

quote:

But it seems like if all you have to do is drop a bit of altitude to get under the clouds then it should be the same as clear?

Not sure I agree, dripping under the clouds has it's own potential impacts for the attacker right? Exposes them to getting spotted or tracked easier (or in higher quality) and of course perhaps shot at when they might otherwise not have, not to mention other effects that still apply to that attack instance and globally to things happening elsewhere in scenaro. I don't see it the same as clear at all.

BTW Found another set of modifiers to a warhead explosion calc that is impacted by weather.
Looks like rain impacts FAE type warhead explosions (makes sense), not exactly sure what's being reduced (damage or blast\fire range), but looks like this.
<5 = no change
>=5 <10 90% (of original)
< 20 70%
< 30 50%
< 40 35%
else: 20%
The probably already obvious "pro-tip" is don't expect big booms from munitions with FAE warheads during heavy rains.

Also and this is more preliminary, but when it comes to unit damage (aircraft\ships\facilities\subs) there something like following that goes on
that best I can tell atm effects damage @ less then 40k feet for non-emp related weapons. I mention it because it highlights that even if you dip below the clouds and drop your bombs the cloudy setting or rain setting, or both, still can have an impact beyond just release.

rain setting impact factor (we'll call this num4):
>40 5% of weapon dmg
>30 10%
>20 25%
>10 50%
>0 75%
else 100%

Further modified there after by what appears to be the cloud setting factor we'll call it num3,
and what I think is a elevation\alt difference factor related to elevations\alt < 12000m (num2), what I'll call num1 here I think is
basically the dmg effect from warhead at given location post spread\area reduction to start with.
pseudo code:
num1 = baselinestuff()
if dmg point elevation < 12k OR unit altitude < 12k then
num2 = dostuff( return 1.0 if both <12k, or computed factor number for other cases)
num3 = cloudsetting (0 - 1.0)
num4 = the above mentioned rain factor selection. (0 - 1.0)
weathermod = (num3 * num4)
if (num2 < 1.0) AND (weathermod < 1.0) then weathermod = (weathermod * (1.0 - num2)) end if
num1 = num1 * weathermod
end if
damage = num1

Don't know that I reversed that entirely accurately but the num3*num4 part is there, highlighting that .1 cloud setting will hurt less then a .8 setting since it further moderate how much of the rain factor is used when it comes to part of damage calcs.

(in reply to Whicker)

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RE: Effect of Light Clouds - 3/18/2019 4:36:43 PM

Whicker

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Joined: 6/20/2018
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ah yes, I am only considering bombing missions where visibility effects detection and laser guidance. Didn't think of flying in the clouds to be bonus as far as detection of your unit. Course that would equally effect both sides so it seems to be back to bombing/recon as the main thing to influence.

That is amazing info, seems like we should all have access to that, no way I would know any of that.

(in reply to KnightHawk75)

Post #: 10