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Special Rules - 6/12/2019 3:38:02 AM   
Michael T


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Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		This is probably too much too ask for, but...

Are there any special rules that reflect some unique historical circumstances that make gaming Strategic WWII so interesting?

Like surprise rules for German invasion of Russia? and deployment restrictions on Russian setup prior to the Barbarossa?

Also what about first winter rules for German-Russian War due to German unpreparedness?

Are there partisans?



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RE: Special Rules - 6/12/2019 12:28:41 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		I personally hope for no partisans.

They're among the most overrated things in Strategy Game.

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Post #: 2
RE: Special Rules - 6/12/2019 12:29:46 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
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Status: offline 		The iron ore route is there with Narvik being important.

Taking certain objectives in Britain leads to Spain coming in as an Axis which would be realistic so it gives incentive to Sealion. But invasions are difficult to do.

Axis advancing quickly bring the USA into the war faster

Taking Greece as the Axis brings Yugoslavia into the Axis camp if done before March 1941.

As for forces and border not really. Russia can setup how they want.

Yes there are partisan effects which impact supply and production

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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
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Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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Post #: 3
RE: Special Rules - 6/12/2019 1:02:48 PM   
AlbertN

 

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From: Italy
Status: offline 		But is Greece doable before March '41? As per, can Germany align Bulgaria / Romania / Hungary to ship troops there?
Or the implicit problem is that Italy has to get through the Royal Navy to get into Greece properly?

Partisan -effects- if there are no garrisons are good.
Partisan units that require corps or armies of regular infantry to get killed aren't. (ie. Assault on Democracy partisans requires lots of regular, large forces to get killed... which is excessive).

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RE: Special Rules - 6/12/2019 1:07:57 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		As with everything in WarPlan Greeve is doable with planning but isn't a sure thing. It is a measure of risk vs reward and planning. The 3 minor countries that do align come in historically. If I remember Bulgaria aligns if Yugoslavia or Greece is declared war on.

Partisans are effects not actual units. But players do need to place small units at key areas to reduce the chance they hit a major rail line or some production center. So for example take the Ukraine. There might be 2 key rail lines and 3 production areas that might be impacted by partisans. 4 divisions and a small corp should do just fine covering these areas as corps have zones of control. But no you don't need the 4th Panzer Army with reinforcements to handle the mob of Russian Partisans.

And even so the partisan effect is a reduction as supply drops. It isn't one old man holding a bottle of vodka, and a rifle cuts off an entire front line.

< Message edited by fuzzypup -- 6/12/2019 1:09:12 PM >

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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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Post #: 5
RE: Special Rules - 6/12/2019 9:25:00 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		No surprise attack and no Russian Winter.

The game has lost some allure for me.

I struggle to think of a WWII Strategic War board game that lacks these things. Or any boardgame for that matter that simulates the Russian Front in WWII.

I don't think the original 3R had any such rules, but certainly both it's successors do.

Interesting considering the blurb about the multitude of boardgames this game is derived from. I would reckon the vast majority would have rules to simulate the Russian unpreparedness for Barbarossa and the corresponding German unpreparedness for a the Russian Winter.



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Post #: 6
RE: Special Rules - 6/13/2019 2:59:11 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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Status: offline 		There are Russian winters. The Russians fight better in the winter vs other countries. Severe winter weather can occur any year. There is also a winter fighting specialization.

Surprise attack vs Russia is simply their units are low starting experience and have to build up by fighting the Axis.

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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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Post #: 7
RE: Special Rules - 6/13/2019 4:02:53 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Ok allure restored.

But, what is to stop the Soviet initially deploying far from the front to avoid the initial onslaught?

And the ensuing, wait for it, the bane of almost all east front games.... the dreaded runaway Soviet defensive strategy?

So what is in your game that will make the runaway Soviet defence much less palatable (for the Soviet) than the historical stand, fight and die defence?







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RE: Special Rules - 6/14/2019 7:57:09 AM   
abulbulian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fuzzypup

There are Russian winters. The Russians fight better in the winter vs other countries. Severe winter weather can occur any year. There is also a winter fighting specialization.

Surprise attack vs Russia is simply their units are low starting experience and have to build up by fighting the Axis.



I hope the Finnish units fight better in the winter as well and to be historically accurate, better than the Soviets.

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Post #: 9
RE: Special Rules - 7/17/2019 3:18:47 AM   
sol_invictus


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From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		I do hope the Soviets must maintain control of certain strategic cities for some time or they lose victory points/moral. Mainly Brest-Litovsk, Odessa, Smolensk, Riga, Minsk, and Kiev.

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Post #: 10
RE: Special Rules - 7/17/2019 6:59:15 AM   
Meteor2


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From: Germany
Status: offline 		Michael T raised an important question.
I think, there were long debates in the WitE forum years ago, where the run-alway-tactic for the soviets was discussed in length.

Sol_Invictus had raised an idea, but what is the generell direction of a solution for this old problem, fuzzypup?

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Post #: 11
RE: Special Rules - 7/17/2019 3:06:16 PM   
sol_invictus


Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		I watched some beta videos last night and the AI Soviets seem to try to hold on as far forward as it dares as long as it can while trying to avoid getting bagged in pockets as well as it is able; which it seems to do very well by the way. Since the game models resources and production I have to assume that the incentive for the Soviets to not simply run to the rear as quickly as possible is that they would take a large production hit for allowing the Germans to waltz into their major production centers before they could move the factories east of the Urals and generally tear up what can't be moved and the Germans would net intact infrastructure with little wear and tear on their units. Maybe no special rules are needed in this case same as for poor Soviet units that are reflected by their low experience. Maybe fuzzypup can add some intel on this.

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Post #: 12
RE: Special Rules - 7/17/2019 4:35:28 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Simply running away will doom the Soviets.

If you let the Germans just gobble up land to save your army you will find a Germany that has high effectiveness and good position when the winter starts and can easily defend vs attacks.

This doesn't mean defend up front. This means defend to delay. Attacking costs more effectiveness than defending. The Soviets want to exhaust the German players without giving up strategic objectives or production. The Soviets have reserve armies that come into play once at war. This is the large reserve of trained men they have. If you study how many men they raised in 1941 after the invasion it is truly mind blowing. 7,234,197 in 1941 and 7,668,415 in 1942.... 1943 ~3,200,000..... 1944 and 1945 ~1,250,000 (they were running out of men)

Anyways the reserves take time to form and usually all are formed by the 4th turn. But you still have to move them into position. The Soviets also have to get rid of these crappy corps and replace them with armies strategically.

This whole method was tested when I made Assault on Communism for SC2. It is the same formula I used for that expansion. AoC had real depth to it. I play tested over 25 games with players to make it better.

Also as the Soviets you should be attacking the crap out of the Germans in the winter. Not only to cause attrition but to wear down their effectiveness. This way by the summer you are both exhausted. But as said before it cost more effectiveness to attack than to defend. So if both sides are worn out it favors the defender.

This of course has to pass the test of players and be adjusted but this is generally how it plays out or at least should play out. How the Axis player fights the Soviets depends on his strategy. Do they forgo everything for an all out 1941 Barbarossa? Or do they go in measured just to cripple their army?

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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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Post #: 13
RE: Special Rules - 7/17/2019 9:59:34 PM   
sol_invictus


Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Thanks for the info. Sounds like what I expected from watching the videos. Do you model the excellent Soviet soldiers from way out east that arrived at the start of winter?

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Post #: 14
RE: Special Rules - 10/19/2019 2:59:29 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Ok I have been through the rules once, so forgive if I have missed something.

My query is in relation to the winter rules for the Russo - German War.

I see that the Russians have a great advantage over the Germans in this respect. That is very good for the first winter of the war, that is 41/42. However it appears to me that this disadvantage for Germany is ongoing and does not mitigate as the war goes on. And we all know it did, and this is usually reflected by the toning down of winter rules as the game progresses. In some games it only is apparent for the first winter. As by the winter of 43/44 the Germans were pretty much on a par with the Russian's in this respect.

So unless I have missed something, it seems WarPlan has shackled the Germans with a terrible winter every year of the war. I see that units can specialize in one? area. One of which is winterization. But the Russian's can also do that. So that does not really help. And I think you can only specialize in one area. So for Germany to try that (winterize the army), she would gave to forgo all other specializations.

Perhaps I just missed something?

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Post #: 15
RE: Special Rules - 10/19/2019 1:29:46 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		No that's right. But it is also shackles the Russians. If they use all their specialization on winter specialization then it is the only time it is effective. There is no historical winter 1941 in WarPlan. The weather is random.

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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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Post #: 16
RE: Special Rules - 10/19/2019 9:59:31 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		But it seems even without winter specialization the Russian's have a very big advantage every winter.

So you say the weather is random. But surely it's based on realistic probabilities, which would indicate blizzard and snow weather occurring at some point every winter season on the Russian front.

BTW, is there a weather table?

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Post #: 17
RE: Special Rules - 10/20/2019 12:30:38 AM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		It's not that big and not always blizzard.

It is based as best as I could estimates on real weather patterns.

Actually that is the one thing I forgot. Thanks I will have to update that in the manual.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 18
RE: Special Rules - 10/20/2019 1:49:35 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Ok, no worries. We will see how it plays out.

A weather table would be nice :)

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Post #: 19
RE: Special Rules - 10/20/2019 11:04:06 AM   
Meteor2


Posts: 429
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From: Germany
Status: offline 		A weather table with probabilities for certain kind of weathers, I guess.
Hopefully not a fixed pattern witth a predictability of 100%.

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Post #: 20
RE: Special Rules - 10/20/2019 1:55:59 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		That's how it works

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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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Post #: 21
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