Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaslon

The line between an authoritative source and propaganda is very thin. So, developers are very careful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

For one thing, its kind of an offhand comment. Like saying my SUV has more room in the back than a car. Might be true, but is he really quantifying it or just throwing out a comparison. Maybe its like, compared to a B-52, it has the cross-section of an F-104. SR-71 pilots were probably better versed in the capabilities of their craft than a typical pilot, but is that something he can quantify? With that said, I would look for another source to corroborate and quantify for a database that measure RCS to 0.1m.

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ORIGINAL: thewood1

You are putting words in my mouth. I saying the same ting you are. There nothing quantitative in the pilot statement. Its like saying I got my trucks weight down to the same as my Ford Focus. Its all relative. From 11 to 2.5. OK, but is it 3.5? 4.5? What did the pilot consider close. How much difference does an Spoon Rest operator see between 5.5 and 2.5?...or even 11 and 2.5. And the answer has to be somewhat translatable to the game. Even if you have an "authoritative" source, that is the real question.

Now the devs can guess, which I am sure they have to do a lot. Even if you search something like global security on RCS, you get a simple diagram comparing SR-71 to other aircraft. That is a little more helpful.

link removed

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

If its a credible source we'll definitely consider it however we do look for multiple sources and some consensus among them.In some cases though you can actually check things by looking at a photos etc. which can give you a better picture

F-104 and SR-71. What does this tell you?

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Reducing the size of the Blackbird’s radar image meant an even further reduction in the likelihood that the plane would be perceived and shot down. Though the initial test results were good, rumors of Soviet radar advances led the U.S. government to ask for an even smaller radar profile.

Surfaces had to be redesigned to avoid reflecting radar signals, the engines moved to a subtler mid-wing position, and a radar-absorbing element was added to the paint. Then a full-scale model of the Blackbird was hoisted on a pylon for radar testing at a Skunk Works’ secret location in the Nevada desert. With tests carefully scheduled to avoid Soviet satellite observations, the results were impressive: The Blackbird model, more than 100 feet in length, would appear on Soviet radar as bigger than a bird but smaller than a man. The team had succeeded in reducing radar cross section by 90 percent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlGrant

This won't help with RCS figures/comparisons but makes gives a good background on the SR-71 development:
"Design and Development of the Blackbird: Challenges and Lessons Learned"

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Meanwhile Lockheed struggled to produce a viable design. Tentatively called the U-3 in early Skunk Works
studies, the airplane had to meet stringent RCS requirements to make it more survivable than the U-2 was to hostile
anti-aircraft defenses. Kelly Johnson developed and discarded numerous designs in an attempt to meet the CIA’s
specifications. While he could design an airplane capable of attaining high speeds and altitudes, he found it difficult
to significantly reduce the radar signature. For a while it appeared likely that the contract would go to General
Dynamics/Convair.

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Johnson subsequently proposed the A-12 with the J58 engines in a mid-wing arrangement to reduce
the airplane’s side profile. Chines along the forebody reduced fuselage sloping while providing additional lift
and stability. The single vertical stabilizer was replaced with two all-moving vertical fins, one on top of each
engine nacelle. These were canted inward for further RCS reduction. Serrations on the wing edges
incorporated radar-absorbent materials.

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To meet customer requirements for RCS reduction as well as for high speed, Lockheed spent a great deal of time
and money investigating high-temperature radar-absorbing materials. These included pioneering work with
first-generation composites and high-temperature plastics. Lockheed’s innovative methods of reducing total and
incidental RCS became the basis for virtually all U.S. low-observables studies and hardware to follow, eventually
leading to development of true “stealth” aircraft that would be virtually invisible to radar.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

For another thing we don't even know what the relationship is between physical cross section and the actual RCS as the game defines it.

I would also suggest in the future put something like this ion the database thread and you might get a little faster attention from people a little more in the know about game implications.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dfox071

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

If its a credible source we'll definitely consider it however we do look for multiple sources and some consensus among them.In some cases though you can actually check things by looking at a photos etc. which can give you a better picture

F-104 and SR-71. What does this tell you?

Honestly? Not much.

We already know the F-104 is much smaller physically, but the F-104 is a bare metal fighter with no allowance for any RCS reduction. This is considerably different from the SR-71.

Once again, per Lockheed Martin:

quote:

Reducing the size of the Blackbird’s radar image meant an even further reduction in the likelihood that the plane would be perceived and shot down. Though the initial test results were good, rumors of Soviet radar advances led the U.S. government to ask for an even smaller radar profile.

Surfaces had to be redesigned to avoid reflecting radar signals, the engines moved to a subtler mid-wing position, and a radar-absorbing element was added to the paint. Then a full-scale model of the Blackbird was hoisted on a pylon for radar testing at a Skunk Works’ secret location in the Nevada desert. With tests carefully scheduled to avoid Soviet satellite observations, the results were impressive: The Blackbird model, more than 100 feet in length, would appear on Soviet radar as bigger than a bird but smaller than a man. The team had succeeded in reducing radar cross section by 90 percent.

This statement seems to line up pretty well with what is reported at GlobalSecurity and with what the pilots actually said, rather than the Wikipedia number derived from what they said. Maybe Lockheed is overstating things, but without any contradicting evidence, and I see none, why would we assume the RCS of the SR-71 is 11.5 square meters?

What should I be getting from that image?

quote:


RE: What is considered an authoritative source? - 8/16/2019 1:20:00 AM   

The SR-71 incorporated many advanced stealth features. Shapes, coatings, and internal structures were all part of it. Disappointing if CMANO does not have this accounted for.

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I think the structural difference between F-117 and SR-71 shows that fundamentally SR-71 isn't stealthy.

Radar doesn't care if the chassis of the aircract is painted black, or what pilots are told, radar cares about what soviet scientist Pyotr Ufimtsev wrote about.

Just looking at a crosssection of the SR-71 engine intake should provide enough information to think that the SR-71 isn't 'stealth' as we think of it today.

(This is just my opinion, I don't edit the DB at all)