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Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do?

 
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Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/6/2019 5:09:06 AM   
CrackSabbath


Posts: 111
Joined: 6/7/2004
From: Aridzona
Status: offline 		Hello all,

Shortly I'll be starting a PBEM campaign vs. jdsrae, who will take the Japanese side. We're playing stock scenario 1, but with a twist - historic first turn will be off, but surprise will be on. We have no house rules, and are approaching it as a "free play ahistoric game with the only rules being what the 1s and 0s allow."

My question is, as the Allied player, what naval TF creation & moves would you make in Turn 1, especially around PH?


Here is a link to the Allied AAR. I haven't decided if I'll do one yet.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655


< Message edited by CrackSabbath -- 9/6/2019 5:14:20 AM >

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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/6/2019 10:44:36 AM   
Hanzberger


Posts: 921
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: SE Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I haven't played the Allies in so long I couldn't tell ya. But overall without HR's I would pull back everywhere on land and start building defenses, esp in China. He will have over 3k AV to play with in a few turns.........extra in China.

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Japan AC wire chart here
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2769286&mpage=1&key=?

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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/6/2019 12:52:21 PM   
Gridley380


Posts: 464
Joined: 12/20/2011
Status: offline 		I'd be highly tempted to sortie everything in Pearl, spreading TFs around the likely places for KB to lurk. An old BB lost at sea is some VP, but one that catches a carrier... that's a game changer. To make this work a bunch of fast surface TFs need to go out before the BB's (cruisers, DD's), and every plane at Pearl should be set to Naval Strike, Naval Search (high percentage), or Escort (I wouldn't bother with much CAP). Some players have play-tested this and there's a thread somewhere about the optimum orders and TF composition.

Like I said, a gamble, but to me the IJN CVs are worth so much more than their VP value that I'd take it.

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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/6/2019 1:50:31 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Pearl may not even by hit, but every last ship disbanded in every last port on the map should be put into a TF completely eliminating the possibility of losing them to a port attack.

This narrows the strike capability of the Japanese against naval assets to Naval attacks.


.......never mind.....just noticed that the Allied player foolishly agreed to allowed himself to be chained down by surprise but has freed the chains from his opponent allowing any kind of attack anywhere regardless of whether, or not, executing said attack could ever have possibly been done without losing surprise.


Makes me want to puke.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 9/6/2019 2:09:15 PM >

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Hans


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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/6/2019 3:28:51 PM   
CrackSabbath


Posts: 111
Joined: 6/7/2004
From: Aridzona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter



Makes me want to puke.


Peace dude, it's just a game.

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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/6/2019 6:34:13 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Pearl may not even by hit, but every last ship disbanded in every last port on the map should be put into a TF completely eliminating the possibility of losing them to a port attack.

This narrows the strike capability of the Japanese against naval assets to Naval attacks.


.......never mind.....just noticed that the Allied player foolishly agreed to allowed himself to be chained down by surprise but has freed the chains from his opponent allowing any kind of attack anywhere regardless of whether, or not, executing said attack could ever have possibly been done without losing surprise.


Makes me want to puke.


Don't fret. The Western Allies misunderstood the Japanese. The Allies heard "We want a peace for everyone!" When the Japanese really said "We want a piece of everyone!"

Also, this is the Japanese players first PBEM game.

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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― Julia Child


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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/6/2019 8:36:05 PM   
CrackSabbath


Posts: 111
Joined: 6/7/2004
From: Aridzona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Pearl may not even by hit, but every last ship disbanded in every last port on the map should be put into a TF completely eliminating the possibility of losing them to a port attack.

This narrows the strike capability of the Japanese against naval assets to Naval attacks.


.......never mind.....just noticed that the Allied player foolishly agreed to allowed himself to be chained down by surprise but has freed the chains from his opponent allowing any kind of attack anywhere regardless of whether, or not, executing said attack could ever have possibly been done without losing surprise.


Makes me want to puke.


Don't fret. The Western Allies misunderstood the Japanese. The Allies heard "We want a peace for everyone!" When the Japanese really said "We want a piece of everyone!"

Also, this is the Japanese players first PBEM game.


LOL! That's probably it.

I've got a good idea of what I'm getting into; we both agreed it would be "ahistorical and free-play," which I think will be interesting, different and fun. I play to win, but just because I lose a game (of whatever), doesn't mean I didn't have fun, which is the whole point. I just hate to see someone so riled up over someone else's game parameters.


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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/6/2019 8:48:07 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Riled up is a state of being for me.

Please don't take it personally or think that is a result of anything about you or your game parameters.

I apologize.

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Hans


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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/6/2019 8:53:33 PM   
CrackSabbath


Posts: 111
Joined: 6/7/2004
From: Aridzona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Riled up is a state of being for me.

Please don't take it personally or think that is a result of anything about you or your game parameters.

I apologize.


It's all good brother!!

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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/6/2019 8:54:57 PM   
T Rav

 

Posts: 387
Joined: 5/29/2004
Status: offline 		Hans,

I love that "Riled up quote." Perfect!

T Rav.

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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/6/2019 8:56:21 PM   
T Rav

 

Posts: 387
Joined: 5/29/2004
Status: offline 		Good Luck CrackSabbath Dude

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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/7/2019 4:34:39 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		Your opponent will, eventually, take the PI/Malaya-Singapore/the NEI and Burma so the following is directed to preserving long term assets and starting to position throwaway assets to cause the IJ delay and attrition.

Completely clear out Pearl Harbor and send everything south of Hilo in small TFs and tell them to stay there. Put all the fighters on 100% CAP and the bombers on 100% naval search, with the Cats flying at night carrying torpedos. You never know, they might hit something.

Completely clear out Manila/PI and send all the cargo carriers and auxiliaries in single ship TFs to multiple places southwards, and, eventually, Perth. Combat ships go to Balikpapan because you might get to shoot up an IJ invasion fleet at Tarakan in a couple of days. Start moving all your ground units AFAP to the Manilla/Clark/Bataan triangle.. Set the the HQ to march to Bataan and hit up the supply draw there and stockpile. Buy the B17s out of PI to Java and set them to train, because you are going to bomb the oil wells* as soon as the Japanese take them. Put all the fighters on CAP 100% for day 1.

* Edit - from 8,000 ft.

Send some PBYs that can reach Rabaul to Townsville or somewhere and start lifting the Bird force home from there. The heavy weapons are unimportant in the long run, but the squads will turn into AIF 44, AIF44 engineers and Bren/Piats one day, and you need them to rebuild the 8th division in Darwin - I advocate forting up the two brigades in Malaya in Singapore, or possibly Palembang where they are in the right place to slow down the the IJA. In fact, the only PPs I suggest you spend now is on the B17s in the PI, so they don't get destroyed on the ground on day 1.

In Malaya, start pulling back ground forces and concentrate your divisions in the south, and fort up Mersing/Johore baru and Singers; set everything to train for Singapore. Send Force Z to Mersing under LR cap in case your opponent has a crack at it. Day two, send it to Colombo for safe keeping (or maybe Capetown).

Set as many engineers as you can to move to Palembang. Send the UK 18th division convoys to Palembang via Oosthaven. Re-route the Indian brigade convoys headed for Rangoon to Palembang. Build forts there, obviously, and stockpile supply.

Concentrate the NEI bombers in Batavia and Sorebaya and put them on intensive naval attack training. Fighters 100% escort training.

In Java, assume the IJ can land pretty much whenever and wherever they want outside the three main bases and march straight over the top of whatever is there. So right away get everything moving AFAP to Sorebaya, Batavia, and third priority Tlitijap. You can pick up most of the Barisan Regt by air from Pamekasan later, so set its objective to Sorebaya now.

In Burma on turn 1 I would set all the bits of the Burma division to rail or road move to Prome so you can assemble it and dig in. AVG to Rangoon, with its ground element.

Last thing is to get a Chinese Corps marching overland to Lashio straight away, and another one to Myitkna; also issue movement orders in China to concentrate ground forces at the 6 usual places, and set their objectives accordingly** and fly the Chinese airforce as far towards India and out of harm's way as possible. The sooner you get say a half dozen Chinese Corps to Diampur, the sooner you will have an American trained, American fed and American led (sort of) Chinese Army with about 4500AV, trained to high experience in combat in Burma. So send them marching now, particularly the corps that is broken up into divisions.

(**And if global replacements is not set to off, turn off all Chinese replacements except for the units already at the choke/stop points or marching to Burma, turn off all upgrades, and divide the replacements-on corps the IJA won't get to for a while.)



< Message edited by Ian R -- 9/7/2019 4:49:48 AM >

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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/7/2019 1:42:59 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Just a question for those advocating dumping everything out of Pearl: What makes you think that a Japanese player would even go towards an alerted Pearl Harbor on turn one? If the naval lanes will be a miasma of singleton TFs fleeing to dot hex islands (as is the only sensible Allied act given this turn one agreed setting), why go so far out of the way to *not* sink any battleships?

Were I the Japanese player, I would assume that the 'bag' at Pearl Harbor will be empty and act accordingly. This is / would be / should be rationale to have KB support turn one landings on Mersing.

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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/7/2019 4:10:35 PM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline 		KB initial strike is very weak, if planes are set as Naval Attack first. Dozens of TFs around will probably waste most of planes against them, and there will be barely anything for port strike.
I agree with Ian R. Move some Chinese units into India for supply, and rebuild.
And set your 4Es at Naval strike 100ft (there was an AAR some time ago, when Allied player sent every PI plane at that altitude, and sunk half of Invasion Fleet). They can't miss with their number of bombs. Fortress Palembang will probably end your game in 1942.

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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/7/2019 5:34:20 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Riled up is a state of being for me.




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Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/7/2019 5:44:23 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		The following is of course JMHO...

quote:

My question is, as the Allied player, what naval TF creation & moves would you make in Turn 1, especially around PH?


... but as a JFB I'd say you've already lost so do as you wish on turn one. Without any HR, I'd just run all my excess assets out of Manchukuo and conquer China real early. I'd divert some 'bought out' assets to defend against any Allied incursions from the north and then its on to Burma and India. If I don't win in '42, it shouldn't take long after that.

I don't care what anyone here says, some HR's are needed. But that's just me.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/8/2019 1:40:59 AM   
CrackSabbath


Posts: 111
Joined: 6/7/2004
From: Aridzona
Status: offline 		Thanks all! As usual, this is great stuff.

Since my opponent is doing an AAR, I'm going to go ahead and post my own, though it will be pretty bare bones. Please feel free to jump in there and help save me from myself. I'll have it up in the next day or so.

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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/8/2019 2:04:55 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi
excess assets out of Manchukuo and conquer China real early.


How many AV can be moved out of there without triggering the Soviets?

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RE: Non historic turn 1. What would YOU do? - 9/8/2019 2:51:39 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi
excess assets out of Manchukuo and conquer China real early.


How many AV can be moved out of there without triggering the Soviets?

In stock, Japan starts with about 13K AV assigned to Manchukuo, with lots of artillery and some tank units. Only 8K AV is required to totally prevent triggering. Dropping below 8K by a few points is very unlikely to trigger Soviet Activation. I gamed it out once and Japan dropped the AV down to about 3200 before the Soviets activated. That was at least six months after they crossed the 8K AV threshold.
EDIT: should have mentioned that I did the experiment in 1942, and being that early may have inhibited the activation of the Soviets. I'm not about to repeat the experiment for 1943, 1944 and 1945!

Most IJ players buy out the tanks and heavy artillery first because the Chinese have no answer to them. If you have no HR about paying PP to cross borders, he can just march a very strong army into China. Only stacking limits will break up his phalanx.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 9/8/2019 2:54:52 AM >

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