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French submarines side torpedos? - 9/20/2019 3:13:36 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		Anyone experimented putting side torpedoes in submarines and can report any out of ordinary result?
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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 8:20:50 AM   
fcooke

 

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Status: offline 		Side torpedoes as in good old fashioned dreadnought broadside jobs or something in line from bow to stern? I never understood the concept of deck installed torpedoes, the idea of inside the hull broadside jobs - I would be surprised that they would even fit.....

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 8:46:25 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Anyone experimented putting side torpedoes in submarines and can report any out of ordinary result?

You mean if French put forward fixed guns on a sub once, then they surely are capable of other ridiculous designs? :D

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 8:58:41 AM   
fcooke

 

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Status: offline 		The A team needs to hunt her next, to see if she really went down due to a collision with a merchant.....

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 12:07:13 PM   
jagsdomain

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Anyone experimented putting side torpedoes in submarines and can report any out of ordinary result?

I dont get the question

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 2:08:21 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

I dont get the question


+1

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 2:17:41 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The A team needs to hunt her next, to see if she really went down due to a collision with a merchant.....

Yes, it's surprising Surcouf hasn't been found yet.

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 2:19:08 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		Side torpedoes, have them mounted like the DDs and Cruisers so the subs don't have to point their ship towards or away from their targets.

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 3:49:10 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Side torpedoes, have them mounted like the DDs and Cruisers so the subs don't have to point their ship towards or away from their targets.


There is the little problem of saddle tanks for air on the side of the sub. And the hull that does not have saddle tanks on it is too narrow to mount a big sub torpedo sideways. It is also silly to expose a sub's side toward the enemy because it would be the easiest to spot/detect. The sub's bow and stern profile is about 20X smaller. There is a reason no one designed a sub this way. Even today's big SSNs have torp tubes mounted at an angle that is mostly forward rather than athwartship.

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 5:07:25 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

I dont get the question


+1



French submarines have center torpedo tubes contrary to USA, Japanese, British, the game was made for these submarines with front and rear torpedo tubes.
My inquire is if central torpedo tubes in submarines throws out the odds. Since some players have added French submarines to their mods, feedback might be avaialable.

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 5:23:16 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

I dont get the question


+1



French submarines have center torpedo tubes contrary to USA, Japanese, British, the game was made for these submarines with front and rear torpedo tubes.
My inquire is if central torpedo tubes in submarines throws out the odds. Since some players have added French submarines to their mods, feedback might be avaialable.

Center tubes? Really? Not completely athwartship I presume, more of an angle?
Do you have a reference handy for the layout of the French subs in question?

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 5:34:08 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		That thing just behind the tower in top of the hull is a turret with 2 torpedo tubes(edit: in this type 1500t class torpedos are 3). It is external to the hull and can't be resupplied. Pretty much all French submarines have one.




Edit2: but in top of the hull in the stern you have another turret that can be rotated, but this can be classified as rear tubes in game.



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Dili -- 9/21/2019 5:38:14 PM >

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 5:43:28 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		Here is technical drawing with rotating angles:







Attachment (1)

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 5:48:16 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

That thing just behind the tower in top of the hull is a turret with 2 torpedo tubes(edit: in this type 1500t class torpedos are 3). It is external to the hull and can't be resupplied. Pretty much all French submarines have one.




Edit2: but in top of the hull in the stern you have another turret that can be rotated, but this can be classified as rear tubes in game.



Ok- this is a different setup than I thought you were positing. This would be used during a surfaced attack, to finish off a cripple or to attack at night like the German wolf packs did. This saves internal hull space but straps several bombs to the outside of the hull which can be rather dangerous is a depth charge explodes close. I doubt the tubes were ever used in combat. Vichy French subs did fight the Allies during the North Africa landings, but I think all attacks were made while submerged.

PT boats launched from a decktop tube (until they got the aircraft torps in cradles) and rarely scored hits, but whether that was because of the faulty torps or the inaccuracy from ejecting a torpedo into the water at a slight angle from the ship's own course, I don't know. If I were putting this in the editor I would reduce the accuracy rating of the launcher (if it has one) or give the torpedo a slightly different designation and modify its accuracy downwards.

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 5:55:40 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		The American Mark 8 torpedoes on the PT boats were used because they had no other use, they used an exploding charge to launch them. So no matter how sneaky the PT boat was, it advertised that it launched torpedoes. That is not a very stealthy thing to do, not very effective if the enemy ship is at battle stations with extra speed available to maneuver.

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 6:00:34 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		Yes i might do what you say and make a new torpedo device for this tubes.

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 6:12:32 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Yes i might do what you say and make a new torpedo device for this tubes.

You will have to set the tubes to only accept that modified torpedo too.

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 6:18:16 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		Yes i just make central tubes and put there the torpedo, you were thinking of them still be of front facing?

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 6:29:55 PM   
BBfanboy


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Status: offline 		Yes. they don't appear to be able to swivel and shoot sideways, so the launch would be frontward. You would have to show the tube as F (front) in the editor definition, not L or R (left or right) or C (center). For AA guns at least, a mounting of "C" can shoot both left and right.

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 6:32:02 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		What do you mean? they can only swivel and shot sideways, you can see it in tech drawing.

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 6:47:28 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

What do you mean? they can only swivel and shot sideways, you can see it in tech drawing.

I see no swivel point under the tube and it appears to be attached to the side of the sub just at the deck line and just above the saddle tanks. I took that to mean they are fixed in place, using the curve of the hull shape to aim the torpedo a few degrees to the side of the sub - like a PT boat. Does an overhead view of the sub show a multi-tube launcher on top of the hull?

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 6:50:25 PM   
Dili

 

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Attachment (1)

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 6:52:39 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Well that is indeed astounding! By all means designate them as center mount then.
(What a platypus design for a fairly simple concept!)

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 7:36:59 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		Those are for those navy people with the mind of Chesty Puller "We can fire in any direction!"

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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― Julia Child


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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/21/2019 7:43:07 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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it would be interesting to know the rationale for designing that side tube; if they were swivel mounts, does it means you can only shoot them surfaced?


torpedoes had gyroscopes so it is very possible to shoot sideways from a bow tube, not to mention that submarines are typically more maneuverable than ships, it doesn't take more than a few seconds to point a sub in a target's direction to reduce gyro angle and possible error


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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/22/2019 12:22:24 AM   
Alfred

 

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Status: offline 		Strong chance they would not be picked up by the game combat algorithms.

Alfred

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/22/2019 4:55:17 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		That would not be the worse, i am afraid if it works will give more chances to intercept. I have got a radical idea but would need maybe too much effort to tweak, classify this torpedoes as a big gun with small number of shots - that way would only be operated on surface.

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/23/2019 2:55:28 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

That would not be the worse, i am afraid if it works will give more chances to intercept. I have got a radical idea but would need maybe too much effort to tweak, classify this torpedoes as a big gun with small number of shots - that way would only be operated on surface.


If by "more chances to intercept" you mean having these side tubes would increase the chances of the TF meeting an enemy TF, then the answer is no. Weapons do not improve the MDL. If, on the other hand, you mean the number of "shots" exchanged would be increased by having additional weapons, the answer is a more qualified no.

Sub combat is different from surface warship combat.

Subs only attack on the surface under two circumstances:

(a) after having been forced to the surface due to damage received underwater, or
(b) the target TF is considered to be sufficiently poorly protected that the sub need not waste a torpedo nor fear being damaged on the surface

In neither case are the weapons of the sub factored into the decision to surface

For non submarine standard naval combat, the choice of weapons fired takes into account the vector of attack. If the action is occurring only on the starboard side, none of the portside weapons which cannot be trained towards starboard, will participate. Not all the starboard weapons are guaranteed to participate, but the potential to do so exists.

The player sees one of the significant differences between the two types of combat when i9n surface naval combat the message is displayed that one side is crossing the "T". This indicates a tactical advantage. There is no such outcome for a submarine TF, it never crosses the enemy "T".

The difference in the combat algorithms is why I said in my previous post that there was a significant chance these side weapons would not be picked up by the combat algorithms. In all likelihood you are adding some totally unnecessary chrome which adds nothing to the game. AE is not a good engine for transplantation to the Mediterranean.

Alfred

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RE: French submarines side torpedos? - 9/23/2019 4:22:55 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		Excellent, thanks Alfred. I like chrome :) but in this case i'll probably do nothing.

< Message edited by Dili -- 9/23/2019 4:25:38 PM >

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