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M712 Copperhead - 6/21/2019 11:22:42 PM

Zakalwe101

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Does the current game or the new southern storm game model the M712 Copperhead round ? From what I've read it would be a significant force multiplier for NATO artillery.

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RE: M712 Copperhead - 6/21/2019 11:35:05 PM

CapnDarwin

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While we have specials/characteristics that cover laser guided artillery rounds, it is not a feature of the Red Storm code and not currently in Southern Storm, but we may add it down the road. In the 80s,it was tested but not fielded. To model it right you need someone designating the target(s). We will be working on that mechanism soon.

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RE: M712 Copperhead - 6/22/2019 12:44:32 AM

exsonic01

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quote:

To model it right you need someone designating the target(s). We will be working on that mechanism soon.

Cool, this could be applied to the Apache hellfire's LOAL-Hi/Lo mode as well, and other laser-guided munitions of cold war.

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RE: M712 Copperhead - 6/22/2019 1:03:55 AM

CapnDarwin

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Exsonic01 that is the plan.

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OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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On Target Simulations LLC

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Post #: 4

RE: M712 Copperhead - 6/22/2019 8:42:05 PM

bayonetbrant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CapnDarwin

In the 80s,it was tested but not fielded.

They were fielding it in Europe in the mid-80s. They didn't make a big deal out of it, of course

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RE: M712 Copperhead - 6/23/2019 4:39:05 PM

IronMikeGolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant

quote:

ORIGINAL: CapnDarwin

In the 80s,it was tested but not fielded.

They were fielding it in Europe in the mid-80s. They didn't make a big deal out of it, of course

You need to have the right gear to call those in. Those were COLT teams (Combat Observation and Lasing Team).

@Brant: I think there was one COLT per FA Bn. That sound right? So, three per Div. Dunno about Corps level FA, but I kinda doubt they had them.

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RE: M712 Copperhead - 6/24/2019 3:16:09 AM

bayonetbrant

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IIRC, the COLTS were in the target acquisition batteries, which was usually 1 BTY/DIV, directly reporting to DIVARTY HQ.
The taskOrg might've been to attach them (or OpCon them) to the DS battalions, but that was probably DIV SOP-dependent.

At Corps level, though, I don't think they had dedicated TABs, so I honestly don't recall if they had COLTs at that level.

From the late 70s thru mid 90s, the corps artillery brigades were transitioned from M109s / M110s to M110s / LANCE, and eventually to M109A6s and MLRS. Since Copperheads are irrelevant to M110s or the rocket arty, they might not have bothered with the COLTs at the Corps arty level.

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RE: M712 Copperhead - 6/24/2019 6:44:25 PM

Artillerist

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The Headquarters battery of the Brigade's direct support Field Artillery Battalions provided all the FISTERs for the Brigade, from FO parties in infantry platoons to FISTs, COLTs and FSEs at Btln/TF/BDE. Heavy Brigades were authorized 3 COLTs, and they fell under control of the Bde Fire Support Coordinator. Light Brigades were authorized 1 COLT per BDE, with an additional 3 COLTs being assigned to DIVARTY's HHB, falling under control of the Division FS Coordinator. All the personnel were organized the same in Heavy and light units, with the exception being the COLTs, and with infantry units receiving Fisters down to platoon level, and armor and cav down to troop level.

In a fully manned BDE you'd have:

2 FISTERs per Infantry platoon (whether light or heavy), organized into a 2 man FO party, able to provide responsive area fires to fulfill platoon needs.

4 FISTERS per Company level HQ in Armor, Infantry, and Cav units organized into a FIST, equipped with a G/VLLD, and capable of coordinating the fires for the company/troop, and providing laser designation for Copperhead and Aerial delivered precision guided weapons.

5 FISTERs per Battalion/Squadron HQ formed into a Fire Support Element (FSE) consisting of three enlisted Fisters and 2 Field Artillery Officers (a captain, and lieutenant) and they would function mainly as a coordination cell.

5 FISTERs per Brigade HQ formed into another FSE consisting of three enlisted and 2 FA Officers (major and lieutenant), again as a coordination cell.

9 additional FISTERs per Heavy Brigade HQ formed into 3 COLTs, each consisting of 3 enlisted FISTERS, and each equipped with a G/VLLD for precision designation.

or 3 FISTERs per BDE HQ in a light BDE formed into 1 COLT.

(in reply to bayonetbrant)

Post #: 8

RE: M712 Copperhead - 6/24/2019 8:24:48 PM

exsonic01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Artillerist

The Headquarters battery of the Brigade's direct support Field Artillery Battalions provided all the FISTERs for the Brigade, from FO parties in infantry platoons to FISTs, COLTs and FSEs at Btln/TF/BDE. Heavy Brigades were authorized 3 COLTs, and they fell under control of the Bde Fire Support Coordinator. Light Brigades were authorized 1 COLT per BDE, with an additional 3 COLTs being assigned to DIVARTY's HHB, falling under control of the Division FS Coordinator. All the personnel were organized the same in Heavy and light units, with the exception being the COLTs, and with infantry units receiving Fisters down to platoon level, and armor and cav down to troop level.

In a fully manned BDE you'd have:

2 FISTERs per Infantry platoon (whether light or heavy), organized into a 2 man FO party, able to provide responsive area fires to fulfill platoon needs.

4 FISTERS per Company level HQ in Armor, Infantry, and Cav units organized into a FIST, equipped with a G/VLLD, and capable of coordinating the fires for the company/troop, and providing laser designation for Copperhead and Aerial delivered precision guided weapons.

5 FISTERs per Battalion/Squadron HQ formed into a Fire Support Element (FSE) consisting of three enlisted Fisters and 2 Field Artillery Officers (a captain, and lieutenant) and they would function mainly as a coordination cell.

5 FISTERs per Brigade HQ formed into another FSE consisting of three enlisted and 2 FA Officers (major and lieutenant), again as a coordination cell.

9 additional FISTERs per Heavy Brigade HQ formed into 3 COLTs, each consisting of 3 enlisted FISTERS, and each equipped with a G/VLLD for precision designation.

or 3 FISTERs per BDE HQ in a light BDE formed into 1 COLT.

Thanks Artillerist, are there any declassfied material or reference to show this FIST/COLT allocation system during cold war era?

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 6/24/2019 8:31:41 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: M712 Copperhead - 6/24/2019 8:56:15 PM

Artillerist

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I should add, the first FIST organization was implemented by the 82nd airborne's 2/321 FA in 1977, and over the next few years the rest of the Army underwent the transition from FO parties attached to company HQ (usually an Artillery Lieutenant and two enlisted artillerymen) to the FIST structure. COLTs meanwhile began forming later in 1990.

Platoon FO parties travel on the supported platoon's vehicles (either M113 or later Bradleys)
Company FISTs used the M113 FIST until widespread fielding of the FISTV in the mid 80s (1984/5ish)
FSEs used the M577
COLTs used the Humvee, and FISTV depending on availability

That covers the time period of the game.

@exsonic01 Yep, For further reading, I recommend FM 6-20-40 (heavy), FM 6-20-50 (light), and the FA/fires journal archive;
https://sill-www.army.mil/firesbulletin/archives/

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RE: M712 Copperhead - 6/24/2019 8:58:28 PM

exsonic01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Artillerist

I should add, the first FIST organization was implemented by the 82nd airborne's 2/321 FA in 1977, and over the next few years the rest of the Army underwent the transition from FO parties attached to company HQ (usually an Artillery Lieutenant and two enlisted artillerymen) to the FIST structure. COLTs meanwhile began forming later in 1990.

Platoon FO parties travel on the supported platoon's vehicles (either M113 or later Bradleys)
Company FISTs used the M113 FIST until widespread fielding of the FISTV in the mid 80s (1984/5ish)
FSEs used the M577
COLTs used the Humvee, and FISTV depending on availability

That covers the time period of the game.

@exsonic01 Yep, For further reading, I recommend FM 6-20-40 (heavy), FM 6-20-50 (light), and the FA/fires journal archive;
https://sill-www.army.mil/firesbulletin/archives/

Thank you so much!!!

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RE: M712 Copperhead - 6/26/2019 6:35:50 PM

exsonic01

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Regarding this feature, would it be possible to introduce FIST and COLT unit, or regard company HQ have FIST unit inside?

Then, assuming the LoS of FIST/COLT (or company or higher HQ assumed to have FIST or FSE inside) is the LoS of laser target designator.

Then, allowing the LGB strike, Copperhead, and Hellfire LOAL mode fire against the enemy in the LoS of such units only.

G/VLLD used near-IR beam, possible to lase 3km against moving target and 5km against stationary target.

Weather effect and IR-blocking smoke and battlefield dust and flames would influence accuracy of guidance.

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Post #: 12

RE: M712 Copperhead - 6/26/2019 7:16:34 PM

CapnDarwin

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Exsonic01, It is a thing we want to do and therefore on our list of features. What I don't know at this time is if it will be initial or post release (there will be constant game engine updates with tweaks and new features since we need to cut and ship and some point or it will never be done).

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
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Post #: 13

RE: M712 Copperhead - 11/1/2019 4:29:47 PM

bayonetbrant

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just as a note for folks

FISTs and COLTs are not interchangeable.

COLTs have the specific laser-guidance tools. Not every FIST does

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Post #: 14

RE: M712 Copperhead - 11/1/2019 8:48:06 PM

ultradave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Artillerist

I should add, the first FIST organization was implemented by the 82nd airborne's 2/321 FA in 1977, and over the next few years the rest of the Army underwent the transition from FO parties attached to company HQ (usually an Artillery Lieutenant and two enlisted artillerymen) to the FIST structure. COLTs meanwhile began forming later in 1990.

Platoon FO parties travel on the supported platoon's vehicles (either M113 or later Bradleys)
Company FISTs used the M113 FIST until widespread fielding of the FISTV in the mid 80s (1984/5ish)
FSEs used the M577
COLTs used the Humvee, and FISTV depending on availability

That covers the time period of the game.

@exsonic01 Yep, For further reading, I recommend FM 6-20-40 (heavy), FM 6-20-50 (light), and the FA/fires journal archive;
https://sill-www.army.mil/firesbulletin/archives/

I resemble that remark!! First assignment FIST Chief, A Btry, 1/320 FA (Abn). 1978. I was later Fire Direction Officer for B Btry, 2/321 FA(Abn). And Fire Support Officer for 1st Bde. Note that in the 82d we had no vehicles for the FIST :-) It was all pretty new and we were working with our infantry CO's to make sure we were well integrated. I had a great infantry CO that we supported (C Co, 1/325 inf) and he told me "If I turn around and my elbow doesn't hit you, you are too far from me" He wanted me (and our radios) in arms reach all the time. Worked for me. We got along great.

Our FIST by TOE was supposed to have a LT, SSG and SP4 for the FIST HQ to go with the infantry company HQ, and 3 x 2 man FO teams (1 SGT FO, 1 PFC RTO) We very seldom had the FO team RTOs and most of our SGT FO positions were filled by SP4s. Pretty much the only place I can remember where we were ever short of personnel. We always had all 3 of the HQ people.

For people into Army organizations, the 3 artillery battalions in the 82d are now 1, 2, 3 of the 319th. Back then, we had 1/319, 1/320, 2/321 and the sister battalions were in the 101st. Not sure how it came to be mixed like that.

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RE: M712 Copperhead - 11/1/2019 10:58:09 PM

Artillerist

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@bayonetbrant
Which FISTs aren't/weren't equipped with laser designators? Do you have a time period in mind? I suppose I'd have to dig into the original rollout of the Gvlld, melios et al to know for sure but I've been in FO parties, COLTs, FISTs, and FSEs at Btln, Brigade and Divarty since 2003, and never heard of a FIST that couldn't laser designate and didn't have at least one and usually two be it gvlld or lldr. Are you talking about FO parties in platoons, and FSEs at echelon? Those are FISTERS but not FISTs.

@ultradave
Some things never change. 2 man FO parties remain perennially 1 man FO parties. My first deployment to Iraq I was my own RTO.

EDIT:
I suppose in the sense that FISTs have a responsibility to provide fire support coordination for the Company as well as FO parties to the maneuver platoons, and the primary responsibility of the COLTs is Lasing for precision ordnance as prescribed by the Brigade Commander, it should be stressed that they are not interchangeable, COLTs have no responsibility to act as anyone's coordination nexus. But FISTs usually do provide organic laser designation for precision ordnance at the company level, using the same laser designation systems, prf codes, etc as COLTs. FO parties assigned to infantry platoons, and FSEs at echelon should be the only FISTER organizations not equipped with laser designators. I guess the legit question is how long it's been this way.

< Message edited by Artillerist -- 11/2/2019 1:09:01 AM >

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RE: M712 Copperhead - 11/2/2019 9:57:54 PM

Artillerist

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Not to spam this topic-- but inspired by BayonetBrant, I'm doing some extensive deep diving into one of my favorite topics, The FIST, the genesis and implementation of the FIST structure and all requisite peripheries (copperhead, gvlld, mule, fistv, colts, etc) during the 1980s; because if I've bollocksed up my FIST history, I want to know about it yesterday not next week. In the process of doing this I'm seeing that the transition was pretty uniformly messy, most especially obvious with regards to light units.

That said, I'm working with a pretty massive body of resources, helped by an old colleague at the schoolhouse at Ft. Sill, and I'll post my findings and source documentation here once I'm confident that the conclusions are bulletproof, if folks are still interested.

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RE: M712 Copperhead - 11/2/2019 10:17:08 PM

CapnDarwin

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I'm always happy with better TOE/OOB info on things like this.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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On Target Simulations LLC

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Post #: 18

RE: M712 Copperhead - 11/24/2019 9:40:53 PM

Artillerist

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So I stand by everything I've said, but I guess I'll add that light units, specifically airborne, but not air assault, issued GVLLDs to their COLTs, but not their FISTs. The FISTs in Airborne units were issued the shoulder mounted (~handheld) AN/PAQ-1 Laser Target Designator. I have yet to find any evidence of FISTs not issued with laser designators, and unable to operate as COLTs (or OLTs prior to formalization of the billet) during the time period of the game.

Relevant formal doctrine is the ubiquitous FM 6-30 (1991). Chapter 2 section 1 lays out assigned FIST personnel and major equipment for light/mech/armor company sized element, section 2-4 clarifies benefits as well as drawbacks to using FISTs as COLTs vs FSEs or both, and appendix A-16 addresses the laser designation capabilities of Airborne FISTs.

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Post #: 19