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Climate Zones - 1/5/2020 9:58:16 AM

cathar1244

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I read this in the "civilian" version of the TOAW manual.

quote:

17.7.1. Table 1: Weather Zones (Northern or Southern Climate Areas)
North to South Zones
0-599 km 1
600-1199 km 2
1200+ km 3

To be sure. Is this saying the first 600 rows of a map are all in the same climate zone?

And,

quote:

To avoid Zonal effects, select an Equatorial Climate area.

Is this saying that the equatorial climate setting turns off the use of climate zones altogether?

Thanks for any feedback.

Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 1/5/2020 11:12:57 AM >

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/5/2020 1:32:29 PM

Lobster

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If a map is over 599 kilometers the map is divided into two weather zones. If the map is over 1199 kilometers the map is divided into three weather zones. If I recall correctly it is an equal division.

An equatorial climate has only one type of weather, equatorial. It's bloody hot everywhere. So one weather zone regardless of size. To get zones you need temperate.

This seems to be how Norm has it set up. Could be wrong.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 1/5/2020 1:33:43 PM >

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/5/2020 1:41:39 PM

Raindem

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That's my understanding as well. It is the vertical height of the map (hexes x scale) that determine the number of zones.

The equatorial zone is just a way to avoid multiple zones on a large map. You can make it as hot or cold as you want with events.

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/5/2020 1:45:02 PM

cathar1244

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Thanks guys.

Cheers

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/5/2020 2:06:10 PM

76mm

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Note that according to my testing (see this thread: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4578026) the figure of 600 km is incorrect--rather than 600km for two weather zones and 1200 for three, it should say 900 km for two, and 1500 for three. But no one else has confirmed or raised this issue, so dunno...

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/5/2020 3:00:53 PM

Lobster

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Easy enough to test. Just make a new scenario, set the map size for however many zones you want to test. Then edit the climate and it will tell you how many zones you have. Should take only five minutes.

280x280 hexes at 2.5 kilometers per hex = 700 kilometers. One weather zone.

So yeah, the manual is wrong. Imagine that. The manual has inaccurate information. Huh.

I don't have III installed so can't go back and check. I wonder if it has been wrong all these years. Wouldn't be surprised since most of the manual is simply copy and paste.

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/5/2020 3:07:42 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Easy enough to test. Just make a new scenario, set the map size for however many zones you want to test. Then edit the climate and it will tell you how many zones you have. Should take only five minutes.

Well, yeah, that's exactly what I did in the testing I referred to...but thanks for the confirmation!

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Climate Zone Events - 1/6/2020 3:49:14 AM

rhinobones

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When a scenario map is large enough to have distinct weather zones you will need to use events to make the weather change. For the Northern zone it takes three �Cold Front� events to go from temperate climate to freezing major rivers and lakes. The manual calls them levels 1, 2 and 3.

To get back from the freezing condition to temperate it takes three �Warm Front� events. Manual paragraph 9.1.3 describes weather but says nothing about events. Don't know, but maybe the necessary events are described elsewhere in the manual. Also, check out the events in a long East Front scenario to see how the winter/summer weather events are structured.

Same applies to turning temperate climate into steaming hot sub-tropical by use of �Warm Front� events. I�ve toyed with this but other than increased pestilence, reduced chemical effectiveness and maybe more rain sub-tropical doesn�t seem to have much impact on game play. There certainly is no visual difference between a temperate jungle and sub-tropical jungle.

Regards

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RE: Climate Zone Events - 1/6/2020 1:16:03 PM

Lobster

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The OP is referring to 17.7

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/6/2020 2:18:11 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Note that according to my testing (see this thread: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4578026) the figure of 600 km is incorrect--rather than 600km for two weather zones and 1200 for three, it should say 900 km for two, and 1500 for three. But no one else has confirmed or raised this issue, so dunno...

Looking at this some more I would guess that if the map is divided into, say, two weather zones and the second zone doesn't meet a certain size criteria then it's dropped and the map is reduced to one weather zone. It would seem silly to have a weather zone of ten hexes. Of course that would depend heavily on scale. In any event, I guess no one has a problem with it.

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/6/2020 3:40:57 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
I would guess that if the map is divided into, say, two weather zones and the second zone doesn't meet a certain size criteria then it's dropped and the map is reduced to one weather zone. It would seem silly to have a weather zone of ten hexes. Of course that would depend heavily on scale. In any event, I guess no one has a problem with it.

I had assumed that all the weather zones were the same size, ie, 900 km/2 = 450 km or 1200 km / 3 = 400 km, but I didn't do any testing on that, so dunno.

I don't have a "problem" with it, but it would be nice if the info in the manual were correct, or at least better explained.

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/6/2020 4:32:02 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
I would guess that if the map is divided into, say, two weather zones and the second zone doesn't meet a certain size criteria then it's dropped and the map is reduced to one weather zone. It would seem silly to have a weather zone of ten hexes. Of course that would depend heavily on scale. In any event, I guess no one has a problem with it.

I had assumed that all the weather zones were the same size, ie, 900 km/2 = 450 km or 1200 km / 3 = 400 km, but I didn't do any testing on that, so dunno.

I don't have a "problem" with it, but it would be nice if the info in the manual were correct, or at least better explained.

It was the same in TOAWIII. The maps were just smaller. So since no one has brought this up I said no one has a problem with it. So much of the manual has been simply copied and pasted there is lots that isn't exactly correct, not even when the manual was initially published in 1998. Yes, it would be nice to be told exactly how it works instead of giving some generic explanation that is inaccurate. I've never had to worry about weather zones so never saw this. Any previous map I've made didn't cover enough territory and the current one is over 1700 km so it has all of the weather zones.

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/6/2020 4:58:27 PM

sPzAbt653

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It seems that there should be different hex parameters for each map scale, but in III and IV I see the same parameters for some different map scales. For example, at 2.5km the weather zone is 279 hexes, and at 10km the zone is 93 hexes while at 50km the zone is also 93 hexes. It doesn't make sense to me but then again maybe I misunderstand it.

I'm wondering what the manual should say, any suggestions?

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 1/6/2020 8:16:51 PM >

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/6/2020 5:26:00 PM

cathar1244

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quote:

I'm wondering what the manual should say, any suggestions?

Perhaps a table showing the zone size in hexes for the various hex scales?

Cheers

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/6/2020 5:29:47 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
...at 2.5km the weather zone is 279 hexes, and at 10km the zone is 93km while at 50km the zone is also 93km. It doesn't make sense to me but then again maybe I misunderstand it.

I don't understand...do you mean 93 hexes and 93 hexes in your last two examples? Where do the 93 km come from at those hex scales?

Either way, I have no idea what the manual should say if it works as you suggest...

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/6/2020 8:10:52 PM

sPzAbt653

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You are right Tom, I wrote 'km' but it should be 'hexes'. I'll correct that, and I'll post a shot in a minute.

Ok, here is 2.5 at 279 hexes, while 10 and 50 km are both at 93 hexes. This is from III and I see the same thing in IV.

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< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 1/6/2020 8:18:41 PM >

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/6/2020 8:16:49 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Either way, I have no idea what the manual should say if it works as you suggest...

It should tell us where the cut off is for the different zones because the manual isn't accurate. Seems it never was.

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/6/2020 8:24:12 PM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

quote:

I'm wondering what the manual should say, any suggestions?

Perhaps a table showing the zone size in hexes for the various hex scales?
Cheers

Ok but I'll have to wait until it makes sense because as I see it now it would be silly to say:
At 10km per hex each Zone is 93 hexes [meaning a Zone covers 930km].
At 50km per hex each Zone is 93 hexes [meaning a Zone covers 4650km].

EDIT: Of course, I should mention that somebody might chime in as to how it all makes perfect sense

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 1/6/2020 8:25:22 PM >

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/6/2020 8:41:42 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
...while 10 and 50 km are both at 93 hexes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
It should tell us where the cut off is for the different zones because the manual isn't accurate. Seems it never was.

Well, if what Steve has found is correct (and I have no reason to think otherwise), it looks like not only is the manual wrong, but the whole Climate Zone system is totally borked... How should that be described in the manual?

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/6/2020 10:44:53 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

quote:

I'm wondering what the manual should say, any suggestions?

Perhaps a table showing the zone size in hexes for the various hex scales?
Cheers

Ok but I'll have to wait until it makes sense because as I see it now it would be silly to say:
At 10km per hex each Zone is 93 hexes [meaning a Zone covers 930km].
At 50km per hex each Zone is 93 hexes [meaning a Zone covers 4650km].

EDIT: Of course, I should mention that somebody might chime in as to how it all makes perfect sense

They just had the numbers wrong methinks.
Try this:

x axis is constant. distances are y axis only

1 climate zone <900 km
2 climate zones =>900 km to <1500 km
3 climate zones =>1500 km

< Message edited by Lobster -- 1/6/2020 10:45:28 PM >

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/6/2020 10:47:45 PM

Lobster

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The best solution would be to let the scenario designer designate climate zones north to south and east to west.

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/7/2020 9:06:34 AM

sPzAbt653

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Editor on the Left, In-Game on the Right. So it's doing something different ... very TOAW-ish

EDIT: To clarify - Editor on the Left [with no scenario open, like when creating a new scenario]; On the Right is with a scenario open.

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< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 1/7/2020 5:17:58 PM >

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/7/2020 11:10:22 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Editor on the Left, In-Game on the Right. So it's doing something different ... very TOAW-ish

< Message edited by 76mm -- 1/7/2020 11:11:16 AM >

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/7/2020 12:50:25 PM

jmlima

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Editor on the Left, In-Game on the Right. So it's doing something different ... very TOAW-ish

There's one thing positive I can say for TOAW in its present state. I've been loking at boardgames again.

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/7/2020 1:04:27 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima
There's one thing positive I can say for TOAW in its present state. I've been loking at boardgames again.

I'm not there yet...at least for operational level games.

I am, however, tired of waiting for WWII tactical games that I like, so have gone back to ASL for the first time in 35 years. This is what progress looks like?

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/7/2020 1:11:08 PM

Lobster

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Set environment is only available in the editor.

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/7/2020 4:30:22 PM

cathar1244

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Based on hex scale, in the scen editor for the latest version, the zones appear to exist for 700 hexes (one climate zone) for 0.25-km hexes, then drop to 234 hexes (and three climate zones) for any hex scale 2.5-km and higher. This is for a 700 hex by 700 hex map.

Cheers

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/7/2020 4:39:30 PM

Lobster

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Because it isn't based on how many hexes rather on how many kilometers.

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/7/2020 4:47:12 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Because it isn't based on how many hexes rather on how many kilometers.

But if it is really the same number of hexes for any hex scale at or above 2.5 km, it doesn't really appear to be based on km...

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RE: Climate Zones - 1/7/2020 5:00:38 PM

Lobster

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He said on a 700x700 hex map.
x axis is constant. distances are y axis only

1 climate zone <900 km
2 climate zones =>900 km to <1500 km
3 climate zones =>1500 km

< Message edited by Lobster -- 1/7/2020 5:02:17 PM >

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