Slitherine

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 4 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 1 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 7

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 3 destroyed

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
xAKL Princess of Negros, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
PG Asheville, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
AS Otus, Bomb hits 1
AM Bittern, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAP Neptuna, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
AV Langley, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Anakan, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
PG Tulsa, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Gertrude Kellogg, Bomb hits 1
xAK Bennevis, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAP President Madison, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAK Si Kiang, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AS Canopus, Bomb hits 2
xAKL Sagoland, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AM Whippoorwill, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAKL Corregidor, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
AS Holland, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 2
Port fuel hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 7000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
24th PG/17th PS with P-40E Warhawk (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
35th PG/21st PS with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
24th PG/3rd PS with P-40E Warhawk (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Who said 3 Bettys were hit.  It could jus as easily have been a single Betty hit three times.  Nor who said 8 fighters intercepted.  Even the Combat Report informs you that at most only 2 fighters intercepted.

Not only does the Combat Report provide some ambiguous information it is also subject to FOW.  Nonetheless a close reading of it provides useful information but watching the Combat Animation is indispensable if you want to know the full picture of what happened.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Incoming aircraft can be intercepted before they start their attack, during the attack and on retirement after the attack. Chances are those Betties shot down happened after the attack on departure from the area. That would mean they dropped 42 bombs unmolested.

The fighters were on CAP at 29,000 feet and the Betties were attacking at 7,000 feet. The raid was spotted only 4NM from target and one minute away. No way could the CAP intercept until the bombing happened.

The Japanese also got a very good die roll and clear sky which gave them lots of hits, but I don't see any subs on that list. Day 2?

quote:

Who said 3 Bettys were hit. It could jus as easily have been a single Betty hit three times.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Who said 3 Bettys were hit.  It could jus as easily have been a single Betty hit three times.  Nor who said 8 fighters intercepted.  Even the Combat Report informs you that at most only 2 fighters intercepted.

Not only does the Combat Report provide some ambiguous information it is also subject to FOW.  Nonetheless a close reading of it provides useful information but watching the Combat Animation is indispensable if you want to know the full picture of what happened.

Alfred

The CR does say three Betties were destroyed. Usually AA destruction is specified separately, so it seems reasonable to expect that interception and shoot-down occurred. FOW may change the numbers involved, but it looks like something along that line happened.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Who said 3 Bettys were hit.  It could jus as easily have been a single Betty hit three times.  Nor who said 8 fighters intercepted.  Even the Combat Report informs you that at most only 2 fighters intercepted.

Not only does the Combat Report provide some ambiguous information it is also subject to FOW.  Nonetheless a close reading of it provides useful information but watching the Combat Animation is indispensable if you want to know the full picture of what happened.

Alfred

The CR does say three Betties were destroyed. Usually AA destruction is specified separately, so it seems reasonable to expect that interception and shoot-down occurred. FOW may change the numbers involved, but it looks like something along that line happened.

What exactly do you think FOW means.

3 Betties destroyed could just as easily be only 1 Betty destroyed claimed by multiple pilots who may, or may not have been engaged in shooting at the Betties. The Combat Reports do not necessarily tie in with the end of turn aggregated aircraft loss tally. TheElf (the air team development leader) was always at pains to state that there simply was no substitute to watching the Combat Animation to see what actually happened.

Alfred

PS: As you have pointed out, the kills could have all been on the egress. IOW the number of reported kills doesn't really indicate whether the attack run was interrupted and therefore reduced the impact of the strike. Again why the Combat Animation has to be watched.

quote:

ORIGINAL: alanschu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Who said 3 Bettys were hit.  It could jus as easily have been a single Betty hit three times.  Nor who said 8 fighters intercepted.  Even the Combat Report informs you that at most only 2 fighters intercepted.

Not only does the Combat Report provide some ambiguous information it is also subject to FOW.  Nonetheless a close reading of it provides useful information but watching the Combat Animation is indispensable if you want to know the full picture of what happened.

Alfred

The CR does say three Betties were destroyed. Usually AA destruction is specified separately, so it seems reasonable to expect that interception and shoot-down occurred. FOW may change the numbers involved, but it looks like something along that line happened.

What exactly do you think FOW means.

3 Betties destroyed could just as easily be only 1 Betty destroyed claimed by multiple pilots who may, or may not have been engaged in shooting at the Betties. The Combat Reports do not necessarily tie in with the end of turn aggregated aircraft loss tally. TheElf (the air team development leader) was always at pains to state that there simply was no substitute to watching the Combat Animation to see what actually happened.

Alfred

PS: As you have pointed out, the kills could have all been on the egress. IOW the number of reported kills doesn't really indicate whether the attack run was interrupted and therefore reduced the impact of the strike. Again why the Combat Animation has to be watched.

This is part of my inquiry... is it possible that the number of planes in the report is actually wrong?

People are getting a bit too hung up on the CAP and its effectiveness and in retrospect I shouldn't have bothered commenting on it. I was actually surprised that 17 different ships were able to be hit by 7 planes.

Part of my inquiry is because I'm super rusty, and didn't think that this was possible, but may be misremembering something that maybe only applies to ships at sea (only possible for 1 attack/1 bomb) - which BBfanboy did point out that there as 42 bombs that were dropped.

Is it safe to assume that what I remembered about combat resolution was actually wrong? Or are there differences between attacking ships at port and attacking ships at sea (which is probably entirely reasonable). My question is more about trying to better understand/reacquaint myself with how some of the game mechanics work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

As has been said by Alfred, and many others, if you want/need to understand an air combat then you must watch the air combat animation. LoBaron was one who spent quite a bit of time looking into from the players perspective and he was adamant. And of course, the dev The Elf has said the same thing. Without the animation, you are speculating a great deal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ETF

No way to turn on the animation in a PBEM game if it was off at the beginnning correct?