Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 )

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Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 )

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Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/6/2020 4:24:33 PM

Neaera

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Joined: 2/6/2020
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Hey, I got a question regarding stealthfighters, especially the F22.
I am currently playing the Air Sea Battle Scenario from the Chains of War campaign, and although the Raptor should be the most advanced air superiority fighter ever build, the chinese J-11 seem to have no problems in shooting it down.

Maybe I am using the completely wrong tactic, so here is the exact situation: I got a squad of 4 F22s and I am facing
6 J-11 from the chinese site. None of us has any Awacs around so its just fighters against fighers. I launched my Aim 120s right at the edge of their range, set the throttle to loiter and turned the nose as far away from the enemy as I could without loosing radar contact to them. The J-11 speed up to 920 knots, and when my missiles haven't even passed 2/3 of the distance between us, the J-11 launch missiles themselves although they are still quite far away.

I thought that the stealth features would kinda protect the F22 to get locked at such a huge distance.

However, I launched a second salvo and started a descend to minimum altitude. The chinese aircraft completely evade my first attack and gain radar contact on my aircraft right before their missiles reach me, and attack my aircraft with hit
chances above 60%. Again, I though that the stealth technology would kinda help against radar, especially against the weaker radars in missile warheads.
2 of my Raptors die, and while they do their evasion maneuvers they loose radar lock on the J-11s and my complete second salvo misses. J-11s are super close then, I still get two of them by using sidewinders but at end I lost all my raptors and just killed 2 aircraft that are much older and no stealth aircraft.

So my question is: am I doin it completely wrong or is the F22 just really weak in CMANO? I remember that I played a scenario where I had Eurofighters and had to shoot down norwegian F35s, and it was almost impossible to get a missile launched on them until I closed in to maybe 30 miles or even less.

Thanks for any answer and don't be to harsh to me, I haven't played the game that much yet

Post #: 1

RE: Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/6/2020 4:38:25 PM

Sharana

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Without save it's hard to speculate. Might be big ground based radar, might be the IRST picking up the Raptors and so on.

Apart from that - the stealth is optimized for the frontal aspect. Showing the enemy your side or back is no longer that "stealth". Also stealth isn't really protecting that much against the missiles themselves if they can lock on - we are talking about almost point-blank range after all.

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RE: Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/6/2020 4:43:27 PM

morphin

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launch the second salvo a few seconds after first one.

I would also turn off radar on one F-22 (full Speed approach) and seccond F-22 use radar on with slower speed behind.

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Post #: 3

RE: Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/6/2020 4:57:52 PM

Primarchx

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IRST's are a real PITA. I was playing a scenario recently where older Iranian F-4s were charging in toward an F-35 strike package still 60nm from target. Turns out they were being cued by a Pantsir IR sensor. You've got to be careful with stealth ac to not get too close and if possible come in off-axis on your targets to prevent them from picking the ac up on radar. Another thing is that often once a stealth ac is detected it seems somewhat difficult to shake a track, even if you evade away from the detecting unit.

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RE: Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/6/2020 5:12:31 PM

Primarchx

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One more thing. If the enemy is set to evade incoming attacks it is possible to outfox (get the pun? :>) the inbound active homing missiles once the your shots start to influence the shooters. As they turn away try to give them an aspect heading on one bearing and, as soon as they no longer have radar on you, turn to a reciprocal course. This means the AHM's last update is lead-computed on a course the opposite of the one you're now on. I've dodged many PL-12s and R-77 this way. Of course you need sufficient range and good timing (& luck) to pull this off.

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RE: Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/6/2020 6:03:37 PM

blkholsun

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One of the things that struck me the most when I first started playing CMANO was how underwhelming the F-22 and F-35 seemed to be. In the world of CMANO they definitely hold their own, especially once you become more familiar with using them, but they are not wildly superior to their Chinese counterparts. I'm intensely curious if this is a good representation of reality--suggesting the supposed ultra-superiority of America's top tier aircraft is just propaganda--or if the developers are erring on the side of being conservative.

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RE: Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/6/2020 6:18:27 PM

actrade

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Just because something looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, doesn't mean it's a duck. In other words, the developers don't have access to stealth technology data needed to model things exactly as in real life. As others have said, tactics also play a key role and perhaps you need to revisit them. I personally leave radars off if I have AWACS support and if not, I have one, trailing aircraft with radar on while my others sneak attack out in front. Seems to work pretty well.

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Post #: 7

RE: Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/6/2020 6:36:02 PM

thewood1

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In CMO and real life, stealth tactics can be very different than "typical" tactics. That includes emissions, target approach, threat picture, etc. There have been numerous threads about the F-35 being either overpowered or underpowered. With a few exceptions, it has been the player not understanding how stealth really works in real life and in the game. It might be good to do a search on stealth and you will find some interesting discussions.

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RE: Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/6/2020 6:57:01 PM

Primarchx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

Just because something looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, doesn't mean it's a duck. In other words, the developers don't have access to stealth technology data needed to model things exactly as in real life. As others have said, tactics also play a key role and perhaps you need to revisit them. I personally leave radars off if I have AWACS support and if not, I have one, trailing aircraft with radar on while my others sneak attack out in front. Seems to work pretty well.

Usually I only radiate an F-22 or F-35 while making missile shots. You can strobe them on and off to update AAM midcourse guidance, too, which reduces the chance they'll be picked up by ESM.

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RE: Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/6/2020 9:15:34 PM

Eboreg

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Are the F-22s carrying external fuel tanks?

If so, set the doctrines on them to jettison ordnance when under attack since doing so will vastly improve their stealth profile.

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RE: Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/6/2020 9:27:31 PM

Dimitris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: blkholsun
One of the things that struck me the most when I first started playing CMANO was how underwhelming the F-22 and F-35 seemed to be. In the world of CMANO they definitely hold their own, especially once you become more familiar with using them, but they are not wildly superior to their Chinese counterparts. I'm intensely curious if this is a good representation of reality--suggesting the supposed ultra-superiority of America's top tier aircraft is just propaganda--or if the developers are erring on the side of being conservative.

I'm reminded of at least a few players who have quite the opposite view.

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Post #: 11

RE: Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/6/2020 10:15:35 PM

BrianinMinnie

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Try using the newest models(or the f-35's for that matter) with the AIM-260 JATM. Jesus, if they'll be as deadly in real life as they are in the latest db, I pity the opponent. I've seen J-whatever's running for their lives against those things. Final terminal homing is killer.

Also I believe the latest or future models (F-22\35's) have their own IRST's in action and that may be helping too. Its almost unfair, however you'll still inhale a couple of PL's occasionally, especially if they get danger close.

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RE: Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/6/2020 11:30:16 PM

Primarchx

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Haven't tested the latest DB's inclusion of the JATM. As I recall the implementation of the old F-14/AIM-152 hypothetical unit was pretty eye-blistering, too. I'm glad it's in the game but I imagine most of the data is pure theory-crafting at this point as there's not much out there on the AIM-260 other than 'same size as an AIM-120' and 'it is not a ramjet'.

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RE: Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/7/2020 12:47:38 PM

madavid0

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You are giving away the F-22's position by turning on the radar as the J-11s have ELINT receivers. This allows them to find you with their IRST sets as well and fire on you. With F-22s you want to just flash the radar to get a fix on the enemy, or maneuver into position using your stealth to engage the radar without the immediately threat of being counter-shot. Or launch without the use of radar at all and rely on other detection platforms and the missile's active seekers for terminal guidance. The F-22 does NOT have an IRST set, just so you know.

Another thing is don't shoot at high maneuverability aircraft at max range you'll likely miss. Try to engage at around half max range. The range in the game only shows the very maximum range, not the certain kill envelope which is much shorter.

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RE: Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/7/2020 5:52:45 PM

SeaQueen

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Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neaera
Hey, I got a question regarding stealthfighters, especially the F22.
I am currently playing the Air Sea Battle Scenario from the Chains of War campaign, and although the Raptor should be the most advanced air superiority fighter ever build, the chinese J-11 seem to have no problems in shooting it down.

Did you think it's magic? You're right, though, you should have won that one. So what might you have done wrong? Personally... I murder them with F-22s.

quote:

Maybe I am using the completely wrong tactic, so here is the exact situation: I got a squad of 4 F22s and I am facing
6 J-11 from the chinese site. None of us has any Awacs around so its just fighters against fighers. I launched my Aim 120s right at the edge of their range, set the throttle to loiter and turned the nose as far away from the enemy as I could without loosing radar contact to them. The J-11 speed up to 920 knots, and when my missiles haven't even passed 2/3 of the distance between us, the J-11 launch missiles themselves although they are still quite far away.

What about ground based or sea based radars?

Personally, I prefer less micromanagement of A2A engagements than what you're describing. I'll just set the doctrine settings, and let them do their thing. That lets me focus on "feeding the fight." You can improve your Pk by firing your missiles a little bit later. Try 2/3 or 3/4 max. Try also experimenting with different doctrine settings for A2A combat. Maybe it's better to snip the missile than to continue into enemy missile WEZ?

Stealth is not magic. They will detect you eventually. They will lock on to you eventually. A lot of making use of LO technologies revolves around working the distance between you and your opposition. RCS is aspect dependent in Command, so make sure you turn away earlier than later (snip the missile).

quote:

So my question is: am I doin it completely wrong or is the F22 just really weak in CMANO?

Probably completely wrong, from what I can tell.

quote:

I remember that I played a scenario where I had Eurofighters and had to shoot down norwegian F35s, and it was almost impossible to get a missile launched on them until I closed in to maybe 30 miles or even less.

Eurofighters... meh... let's play some REAL airplanes, like F-15Cs!

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RE: Effect of Stealth fighters ( F22 ) - 2/7/2020 6:43:33 PM

Choppedspinach

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I noticed you said you're playing CMANO, not CMO. Vanilla Chains of War in CMANO uses DB3000 v473, which predates the big CEC update. CMO uses v480, which makes a huge difference. The Chinese need a radar lock to fire, and not just IRST or an AEW track. I find that F22s and F35s with stealthy loadouts can get as close as 10 nm before the Chinese can shoot. At that range an AIM-120D is a deathray. If you have the CMANO editor I highly recommend updating the database if you like stomping 4th gen fighters.

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Post #: 16