Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe

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Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/15/2020 9:59:54 AM

PanzerMike

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Does anybody have good info (preferably a map, maybe of some other wargame) on what stretches of coastline where deemed unsuitable for amphibious landings? I know the Allies studied years on this and made extensive reports on this subject matter.

Of course the entire Atlantik wall area is of interest (Norway to Spain), but also Southern France and Italy. Heck, even Spain itself in case of alternate history.

Got any good stuff? Please let me know!

Post #: 1

RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/16/2020 4:18:45 PM

ericdauriac

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From: Limoges
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The only solution I've found: use GOOGLE EARTH, find out which beaches are big enough (several kilometers) and which are not bordered by cliffs (very empirical solution)...

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RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/16/2020 4:38:03 PM

PanzerMike

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I was hoping somebody had already done that

or access to the Allied reports of the time.

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Post #: 3

RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/16/2020 4:48:56 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericdauriac

The only solution I've found: use GOOGLE EARTH, find out which beaches are big enough (several kilometers) and which are not bordered by cliffs (very empirical solution)...

this misses the tidal problems in areas such as the Waddenzee, the extensive sand and mud banks that cover the coast say from east of the Ijselmeer to Hamburg. The few deep water channels are predictable and easy to mine - I think you can find British studies on this problem pre-WW1

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Post #: 4

RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/16/2020 5:03:16 PM

battlevonwar

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Suitable Coastlines, seems proximity to a Major Port is more ideal than coastline? Normandy was near one and Calais was why they were chosen. Sicily was preferable cause it has ports. Morocco/Algeria does too. In this game it's not GG's War in the East/West.

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 2/16/2020 5:07:29 PM >

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Post #: 5

RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/16/2020 5:13:25 PM

PanzerMike

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I am really interested in what parts of the coast are just more or less impossible to use for amphibious landing. Due to cliffs, rocks, sand banks, tidal problems, , sand unsuitable for vehicles, etc. I want to make them uninvadable in the game.

Of course there are other considerations why a landing site is good or bad. For example, the Dutch coast between Hoek van Holland and Den Helder is mostly sandy beaches and dunes. Fine for an invasion I would say (provided the sand can take vehicles, which I think it can). Inland is a different matter: polders, cities, rivers, canals, etc. So breaking out of the beachhead would be hard. And other reasons (fighter range, proximity to Germany, etc.). So maybe Holland is a bad choice for invasion. But physically it should be possible.

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RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/16/2020 5:19:42 PM

battlevonwar

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PanzerMike,

even Gallipoli was possible... D-day was against some cliffs and formidable obstacles in places. I see where you're getting at I think maybe the beach defense improvement would be nice if it really did more. I don't really notice much good of it.

The Pacific shows some atrocious terrain and there are places you can invade that you probably shouldn't. i.e. Peleliu that I read a book about. Wow...If the other Islands were bad enough here is a sum of what that was like. "Rocky, smelled of corpses and human waste, on a worthless Island with cooking rocks under the Tropical Sun." I wonder how US Marines managed it. Given afterward in Game terms you would of had 5% effectiveness and massive casualties.

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 2/16/2020 5:20:31 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/16/2020 5:27:12 PM

PanzerMike

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The beach defense improvement, I never build one. Their use kind of eludes me to be honest. Anybody found them to be actually useful??

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Post #: 8

RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/18/2020 1:35:19 PM

LiquidSky

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I usually build a couple with the british and leave them in my Deploy queue for emergencies. They can be used on any hex that can be attacked by a coastal hex...like El Alemien, or in Britian. Or even help after an invasion in Sicily or France

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Post #: 9

RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/18/2020 2:14:23 PM

PanzerMike

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I still don't quite get them. They can only be build on NON beach hexes, because they provide a defensive bonus against attacks FROM a beach hex. Fine, I get that.
However you can also invade hexes that are NOT beach hexes. Some hexes are land and ocean at the same time and can be invaded. There is no use placing a coastal defense unit in such a hex. It does nothing.
And even if you build one in such a hex, it can still be invaded because the coastal defense does NOT count as an actual unit. Only if you place a real garrison unit on such a hex, can the hex no longer be invaded. And again, in that case also the coastal defense (if you built one there) does nothing and is wasted.

So the way I see it, they are only of any use in a hex NEXT to a beach hex and the coastal defense MUST be manned by an actual garrison unit. Invadable NON beach hexes can only be protected by an actual garrison unit.

The whole beach concept is a bit wonky IMHO.

In the mod I am making I changed ALL invadable hexes in France to beach; no more land sea hexes that can be invaded. Doing the same for Belgium and Netherlands. From now on, beach invasions only :-)

< Message edited by PanzerMike -- 2/18/2020 2:44:19 PM >

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Post #: 10

RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/18/2020 2:48:25 PM

MorningDew

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PanzerMike

In the mod I am making I changed ALL invadable hexes in France to beach; no more land sea hexes that can be invaded. Doing the same for Belgium and Netherlands. From now on, beach invasions only :-)

Now that makes a lot of sense to me.

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RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/18/2020 3:07:54 PM

tyronec

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quote:

I still don't quite get them. They can only be build on NON beach hexes, because they provide a defensive bonus against attacks FROM a beach hex. Fine, I get that.
However you can also invade hexes that are NOT beach hexes. Some hexes are land and ocean at the same time and can be invaded. There is no use placing a coastal defense unit in such a hex. It does nothing.
And even if you build one in such a hex, it can still be invaded because the coastal defense does NOT count as an actual unit. Only if you place a real garrison unit on such a hex, can the hex no longer be invaded. And again, in that case also the coastal defense (if you built one there) does nothing and is wasted.

So the way I see it, they are only of any use in a hex NEXT to a beach hex and the coastal defense MUST be manned by an actual garrison unit. Invadable NON beach hexes can only be protected by an actual garrison unit.

The whole beach concept is a bit wonky IMHO.

In the mod I am making I changed ALL invadable hexes in France to beach; no more land sea hexes that can be invaded. Doing the same for Belgium and Netherlands. From now on, beach invasions only :-)

You do realise units on beach hexes get blasted by bombers...

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Post #: 12

RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/18/2020 3:27:18 PM

PanzerMike

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Exactly! That is the whole point. The beach is a dangerous place to be.

Why invade a beach hex if you can simply land on one of the land/sea hexes? Much safer. Because you can do that, it also makes the Coastal Defense practically useless.

< Message edited by PanzerMike -- 2/18/2020 3:31:57 PM >

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Post #: 13

RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/19/2020 2:19:22 PM

PanzerMike

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewKurtz
Now that makes a lot of sense to me.

I have changed most (still working on it) of the European coastlines now. Invasions on beaches only, and a marker to show what hexes are eligible for invasion:

< Message edited by PanzerMike -- 2/19/2020 3:16:38 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/19/2020 8:03:07 PM

Lascar

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This map doesn't show the invadable beaches per say but it does show the cities/ports that were fortified and other strong points.

https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/culture-history/2019/06/top-secret-maps-reveal-massive-allied-effort-behind-d-day

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Post #: 15

RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/20/2020 8:45:04 PM

PanzerMike

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Well, Alvaro tells me that Coastal Defenses work both against attacks from Beach hexes as well as Land/Sea hexes (which are called "Coastal"). It was confusing to me, but that is how it is.
So there is not much use anymore in changing everything to beaches at the coastlines :-)

But maybe this is nice instead:

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Post #: 16

RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/20/2020 9:12:10 PM

Vonrich

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It could be cool to have the defenses show up as units of unknown type on the map to deter invasion. I do wish there was a tech line for espionage too for a chance to reveal enemy forces for a turn. Each level granting additional hexes that may be revealed for a small cost (20?) with a 50/50 chance of succeeding at equal strength espionage. You can gain a +10% chance for every year espionage you have against your opponent. So if I am 1939 and you are 1940 I would have 1 hex I could spend 20 production on for a (50-10)=40% chance of revealing your unit there, whereas you would have 2 hexes that you could spend 20 production each trying to reveal for a (50+10)=60% chance of success. Maybe even include a mechanic where there's a base 25% chance of the defending player learning of the espionage +/- 5% per level. If they learn of it it shows up in the report, if not then they are none the wiser.

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RE: Need info on uninvadable coast W-Europe - 2/20/2020 9:15:08 PM

Vonrich

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I'm going to start a new thread for this. That got pretty off-topic.

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Post #: 18