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destroying one's own units - 5/15/2020 1:44:00 PM

sillyflower

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I see that this is now possible even with pocketed units, but I can't see anything about it in the updated manual.

Can someone please tell me what the benefit is. It is not immediately obvious.........

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RE: destroying one's own units - 5/15/2020 2:03:26 PM

Bozo_the_Clown

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I believe it's because of Axis players who leave units in pockets forever so that they don't come back as replacements. The new system is very nice because armies come back assigned to STAVKA and not the front they used to be assigned to.

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RE: destroying one's own units - 5/15/2020 2:45:49 PM

sillyflower

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Sorry. I don't quite follow. if you want the unit to stay in a pocket, what is the benefit of destroying it?
If you disband a unit in supply, you get the troops and equipment back, and the unit counter does not reappear. What's the difference between disbanding and destroying? You used not to be able to disband when pocketed, obviously, so what happens when it is destroyed by the owning player when it is out of supply?

Reminds me of the Jewish elite suicide commandos in Monty Python's Life of Brian.

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RE: destroying one's own units - 5/15/2020 2:50:36 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
if you want the unit to stay in a pocket, what is the benefit of destroying it?

Consider the tactic of leaving units to rot in a pocket and never attacking them. As a Soviet player in 1941 unit density is important. Would you want to leave a a unit to stay in a pocket rather than seeing it come back sooner on the main front?

I did once see an extreme case of the leaving to rot tactic where the Soviet player had to launch repeated suicide attacks to get them to auto-surrender sooner. So the elite Jewish suicide squad is a more apt analogy than you might have realised!

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RE: destroying one's own units - 5/15/2020 2:52:54 PM

joelmar

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An HQ that is isolated can be left there to rot indefinitely by the German player because it can't move in enemy controlled territory. So if the German player does that, the Soviet has the option of destroying the HQ so it can come back as a new unit.

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RE: destroying one's own units - 5/15/2020 4:45:21 PM

sillyflower

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OK, I get it now. To quote from MASH, 'suicide is painless and it brings on many changes'

Seems to me that 1 gamey exploit has been replaced by another. Russian can immediately destroy pocketed units the turn they are isolated, so they come back 1 turn earlier than before. Also, suicide prevents Germans from capturing their kit, experience/morale points for killing the units and no prisoners who can be turned into HIWIs. There may be times when units in a pocket which can't be rescued are better kept alive as speed bumps, but the elite suicide militia tactic is certainly going to be used quite extensively I think by the Russians.

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RE: destroying one's own units - 5/15/2020 4:49:16 PM

Telemecus

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This is good way of putting an old point. When solutions are made for problems in isolation rather than the system as a whole, then you do lead to a completely new set of problems.

I should say it is not impossible to design solutions which solve one exploit without creating new ones - in another area that is essentially my job description!

But yes every patch solving one exploit in isolation has lead to its new exploits.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/15/2020 4:50:15 PM >

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RE: destroying one's own units - 5/15/2020 5:11:47 PM

sillyflower

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You clearly have a job for life, and one that should not leave time for gaming.

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RE: destroying one's own units - 5/15/2020 5:18:59 PM

Telemecus

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You know the problem of allocating free places in schools - and how pushy parents are legendary in gaming the system. Well one guy finally invented the unexploitable free school places system. And he won the Nobel prize for it!!! I am not saying game designers need to be a Nobel laureate - but it could help

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/15/2020 5:27:55 PM >

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RE: destroying one's own units - 5/15/2020 6:22:52 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

OK, I get it now. To quote from MASH, 'suicide is painless and it brings on many changes'

Seems to me that 1 gamey exploit has been replaced by another. Russian can immediately destroy pocketed units the turn they are isolated, so they come back 1 turn earlier than before. Also, suicide prevents Germans from capturing their kit, experience/morale points for killing the units and no prisoners who can be turned into HIWIs. There may be times when units in a pocket which can't be rescued are better kept alive as speed bumps, but the elite suicide militia tactic is certainly going to be used quite extensively I think by the Russians.

The algorithm for how much stuff goes into the pool is different between "suicide" and surrender.

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RE: destroying one's own units - 5/15/2020 10:14:46 PM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

The algorithm for how much stuff goes into the pool is different between "suicide" and surrender.

You are such a tease.

What are the differences? If an isolated unit does either, I assumed that the owning player gets nothing in any event. Zombie HIWI units deserve a full new update on their own!

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RE: destroying one's own units - 5/16/2020 9:57:18 PM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
if you want the unit to stay in a pocket, what is the benefit of destroying it?

Consider the tactic of leaving units to rot in a pocket and never attacking them. As a Soviet player in 1941 unit density is important. Would you want to leave a a unit to stay in a pocket rather than seeing it come back sooner on the main front?

I did once see an extreme case of the leaving to rot tactic where the Soviet player had to launch repeated suicide attacks to get them to auto-surrender sooner. So the elite Jewish suicide squad is a more apt analogy than you might have realised!

Hmmmm. I have now destroyed some HQ units but no combat units could be destroyed, so the 'leaving to rot' tactic is still valid. Getting an HQ back is hardly going to help at all as USSR gets an over-abundance IIRC.

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RE: destroying one's own units - 5/17/2020 1:43:49 AM

eskuche

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I think one of the main points of this was so that Fronts wouldn't be stranded (NW front does often turn 1) and lock SU movement and command rearrangement.

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RE: destroying one's own units - 5/17/2020 7:38:13 AM

sillyflower

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That makes sense. Tx

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