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Bottlenecks in the Pacific - jansako (J) vs AXE19999 (A) - Axe is welcome here!

 
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Bottlenecks in the Pacific - jansako (J) vs AXE19999 (A... - 1/22/2022 2:41:48 PM   
JanSako

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 1/16/2022
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In case it was not clear from the title, my opponent is welcome to read & engage in this thread.

The intention here is to provide a from time-to-time snapshot & collection of musings on the state of our game & maybe engage in a bit of strategic deception too .

We are playing with LST's most excellent creation - Bottlenecks in the Pacific. LargeSlowTarget, you have my profound gratitude for what you have created here.

A few reasons why:
- DBB-C already does a great job of slowing down the pace of operations by limiting cargo capacity, so that was a great baseline to start

- Add the awesome quagmire that he made China into. After looking at the map for 5 minutes I began to feel like the Imperial army logistics staff must have felt. Pure dread. I have whole divisions isolated without ground connection, FFS! Every hex, I mean ever single hex you control must be garrisoned. Every singe hex you do not control is garrisoned by Chinese 'admin' units with 'decidedly not admin' Chinese Corps sprinkled throughout. Any offensive will be shedding units like... you get my point!

- U want to see 15-20 division JAP deathstacks in China, rolling over everything? Not here, siree! U want o see tank battles with hundreds upon hundreds of tanks battling it out across Burma? I don't think so unless you can make them nuclear powered & able to fly! (No wannabe Guderian-s needed here).

- This last bit I could not yet fully confirm, but the '4E bomber rules them all' have also been toned down (brilliantly I think, by halving the accuracy of the defensive guns). They will still be just as hard to shoot down outright, but I don't think the B-17 pilots should have the most kills in the allied air forces.

- Lots of other tweaks (i.e. Refineries do not produce supply), most pacific bases are c**p in the beginning, with no supplies or fuel to speak of until you actually send some. The Japanese homelands only has a fraction of the oil/fuel at hand than they do in Vanilla.

- My old beef with WITP was also solved (did I say my respects to LST yet?), that is the way bomb (hits) are calculated for aircraft with multiple bombs:

Stratbombing IRL? - "We are somewhere around the target, lets drop them & get the hell out of Dodge!" - the lead plane drops, then they all do & skedaddle. If the first plane is short, you just plowed up a whole lot of countryside for nothing. (The farmer would disagree, of course but, you know...)
Stratbombing in WITP? - "Make sure you ONLY drop one bomb, then we turn around I make another pass to see what else we can hit" (x50-100 other heavies doing the same thing in the night over a darkened airfield in the middle of the jungle someplace) - yeah, right... even during daylight, their defensive envelope (they need to be in formation to defend each other!!!) would get screwed completely & they would...well you get the point...

LST solved this (I think I have seen it in other modes since) by creating a single device for each loadout. So a plane with 6x500 lb bombs will drop a device called '6x500lb bombs' with an effect of X, BUT it drops just one. So in theory each bomber gets ONE roll for a hit & then goes home.


I am aiming to produce maybe one post a (game) month, right now it is December 31, 1941.

The game starts on Dec 7th PM. PH attacks have happened but Force Z is still alive! That's right, the Allied player gets to keep the 2 Brit battlewagons unless they suicide them. My opponent actually tried a few days later, the TF was detected but of course Betties from Saigon refused to fly that day. That night Force Z run a gauntlet of subs, barged into (or tried to) Kota Bharu & promptly run into Malaya Heavy Cover that were waiting just for this moment. A counter climactic naval battle ensued, with all 4 present BB's each getting a couple of hits from main guns, then the Brits withdrew. That was the last I seen of Force Z, for now.

State of affairs:

The glorious conquests of the Empire are going slower than I expected, although the name of the mod suggested something like that :-)

- My forces are about halfway down the Malayan peninsula, having it found pretty much empty so far.

- Hong Kong has fallen, still sorting out the garrison situation in China & shuffling units around.

- Rivercraft battles in China (I love this mod!) - my flotilla of river craft has been engaged in regular bombardment of Changsha with their 8cm guns (just because the Chinese can do nothing to them for now), then my opponent decided to do the same with his boats which prompted me to send mine after him up the Yangtze all the way to Chungking! Now most of mine are limping back, most of his are being carried by the current (I hope).

- Rabaul has fallen, more advances expected southbound shortly. (Ss well as the usual targets were taken - Guam, Wake, Tarawa)

- PI my forces are positioning themselves, I have not decided if I take Clark first & split his forces or Manila first & just herd them all together. On Mindanao he is defending the usual mountain hex just NE of Davao.

- Borneo is mine, I need to pick my next targets carefully cause he likes to strike MY oilfields from time to time & I do not have a whole lot of air support. That's right, the issue is not air units or planes, but air support squads!

- No major naval assets have been lost on either side yet, a number of small craft & transports etc but nothing bigger than a CL, except Ryujo who ate a couple-three Catalina torps off Luzon. Thing is I always lose Ryujo early in my games no matter what so I have expected that. (not counting the initial BB lost at PH, I think it was only 2 if that). I should have sent KB back for a second day strike but I was too rusty & they were about 15% planes down at game start.

- The usual in the hinterlands, convoys-convoys-convoys to bring in all the resources I can; training all the pilots I can, getting mad at the useless IJN Type 95 Depth Charges, waiting for Jake's to be semi-decent as ASW. Nothing different except reserves at hand are... not very large.

Oh, one more deviousness of LST's was that all R&D factories start at size 0!!! Will I be fielding late war planes in '43? Does not look like it, my friend... even if had the supplies to expand & then repair all of these factories which I don't.

The closing thought? I have not had this much fun with WITP in years!!!
Post #: 1
RE: Bottlenecks in the Pacific - jansako (J) vs AXE1999... - 1/22/2022 3:14:11 PM   
gervabit


Posts: 49
Joined: 7/2/2019
Status: offline
Resource logistics is a nightmare, using almost all AK, AkL, using almost a dozen ports, I barely manage to keep my industries running

(in reply to JanSako)
Post #: 2
RE: Bottlenecks in the Pacific - jansako (J) vs AXE1999... - 2/3/2022 11:37:38 AM   
JanSako

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 1/16/2022
Status: offline
My opponent has answered the call of the motherland & put on a uniform for a couple of months. If all goes well, we should resume at some point in April.

Current game date is January 16, '42 and the current state of affairs:

Air Losses:
400+ Allied planes vs 500+ Japanese
The allied air force has been largely absent so far, apart of some CAP traps & very few naval attacks. I suspect he is waiting until my agility bonus goes away. EDITED - 'the Agility bonus' has only been gone since AE was out... oops! Not sure then if he sent all his pilots back to flight school or something...

Ship losses:
346 Allied ships vs 51 Japanese.
Ship losses started to increase for me as more and more shipping gets put to sea to transport resources back to Home islands & as the shipping lanes get longer. I survived a few lucky hits but he got a few in too. Funny think is that often the Mk13 torps seem to not work at all, or I get hit by 2 working ones (that must be a large AP right? :-) ).
Good news I only lost a total of 3 combat ships (one of them was Ryujo, but oh well..) in exchange for (2BB's at Pearl), 5 CL's (including Boise & Mauritius), ~10 DD's & 'many' smaller patrol craft. I am quite happy that I also managed to bag a few large AP's (10k & up) including a Dominion, Empress & Shire classes.

I know his losses are quite light all things considered as well, but there are very few allied ships left within reach. Also, it goes without saying that the allied figures are highly tentative. FOW is strong here!

Frontline situation:

China:

1. I am besieging Chengchow. Last intel puts about a 100k enemy in there. So far I have lost a couple of divisions worth of disabled squads, the Chinese maybe a 1/3 of that (forts & forced Shock across the river). Think I should have flanked them? The hex o the SE that I control has a throughput of 5!!!. 'nuff said...

2. The largest battles so far have been around Ichang. The Chinese tried to cut it off a couple of times but had trouble coordinating. They lost an estimated 20k+ casualties. Not that it matters much to them, just trying to keep the count of destroyed squads at over 300/month.

3. The siege of Wenchow. A city with even more industry than Chengchow, it is not currently producing any for the Chinese which was the main point. A division got mauled there pretty bad, so now I will just sit there & recover while pounding the city with the old IJN cruisers (Iwate, Izumo, Yakumo) & using it for target practice for my bombers. I will eventually take it when I am strong enough. In the meantime it will stay a drain on his supply.

4. Managed to cut off a couple of cavalry units in Paotow. Most of my forces are small RGC units & the terrain is bad so it will take a while, but they will serve as target practice for bombers until they starve.

Plans for the future?
- extract as much resources from China as possible, and then some more.
- deny as much industry as possible to the Chinese
- destroy any targets of opportunity
- ***secret - redacted***




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by JanSako -- 2/9/2022 8:17:57 AM >

(in reply to gervabit)
Post #: 3
RE: Bottlenecks in the Pacific - jansako (J) vs AXE1999... - 2/3/2022 11:41:53 AM   
JanSako

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 1/16/2022
Status: offline
SRA:

1. Manila taken, I will try to push them into Bataan but it is not a priority any more. Clark has maybe forts level 2 so 2-3 days of attacks should do it.

2. Mindanao - resistance is mostly finished but the smaller units won't be able to kill that blob (2 PI divs + some other remnants) so the one full div I used there will need to stay & finish the job.

3. Borneo is mine (the important parts), still seeing occasional raids coming from Soerabaja up the Makassar strait. Have to suppress Soerabaja for those the stop altogether.

4. In Malaya my pixel soldiers walked all the way from Singora, lead units should start probing Johore in a few days. Probably not much in a way of forts there, I kept the airbase suppressed so they cannot build more. (now that I wrote it, sounds really gamey, doesn't it?)

5. Playing whackamole with the allied subs in South China Sea. Or more like they are playing 'shoot & scoot' with me, not like Type 95's are even remotely effective or anything. I put up as much air assets as I can, including dive bombers but I am not having much luck, only sunk 1 sub so far (unconfirmed). Lots of 'sub reported hit' but we all know how unreliable those are when it comes to enemy subs.

Next steps:
Sumatra & Java must be taken, then push the perimeter Southbound. How far? Now that is classified :)





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by JanSako -- 2/9/2022 8:19:15 AM >

(in reply to JanSako)
Post #: 4
RE: Bottlenecks in the Pacific - jansako (J) vs AXE1999... - 2/3/2022 11:43:59 AM   
JanSako

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 1/16/2022
Status: offline
SoPac & PNG

Sorry, no pics, too many sub patrols & other sensitive info would be visible.

Rabaul & Port Moresby taken, working on significantly expanding different bases because ALL of them were 'less than developed' in this mod (thanks LST!).

Next steps - Clean up the rest of southern PNG, expand the perimeter around the main outposts & ...super-top-secret-redacted...

< Message edited by JanSako -- 2/3/2022 6:31:53 PM >

(in reply to JanSako)
Post #: 5
RE: Bottlenecks in the Pacific - jansako (J) vs AXE1999... - 2/3/2022 11:46:56 AM   
JanSako

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 1/16/2022
Status: offline
CenPac & North

No activity in the North, just simply no forces available right now.
I took Wake & Tarawa, there is more to come. Again, LCU & naval support availability is very limited.

I had some good success with small raiding forces against the allies supplying & reinforcing the HI defense ring of atols, a few DD's at a time just blast away with Long Lance torps & disappear into the endless Pacific. Will keep it up until the allied patrol coverage improves enough that they get detected on the way in. Or until they put a SAG group onto each of the potential targets which may or may not be my intention in the fist place.

< Message edited by JanSako -- 2/3/2022 6:56:29 PM >

(in reply to JanSako)
Post #: 6
RE: Bottlenecks in the Pacific - jansako (J) vs AXE1999... - 2/3/2022 12:04:57 PM   
gervabit


Posts: 49
Joined: 7/2/2019
Status: offline
Don't waste a day organizing your resource TFs. Distribute them by whatever port you have, to speed up loading and unloading, make sure they do not exceed the permitted tonnage of the port to be able to dock them.
And do not overdo it with the expansion of the economy that the supplies to repair increased

(in reply to JanSako)
Post #: 7
RE: Bottlenecks in the Pacific - jansako (J) vs AXE1999... - 2/3/2022 12:31:31 PM   
JanSako

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 1/16/2022
Status: offline
I already stopped repairing some HI I expanded on day 1. Hardly any R&D is getting expanded as well. Building up forts or even airbases in the hinterlands is just a dream for now.

I feel the fuel is a more pressing issue despite the tracker showing only 17 days worth of resources in Home islands so I am trying to run as short of a convoy routes as possible.

Also any ships coming back must be bringing something back, even if it means loading fuel in barrels onto xAK's.


< Message edited by JanSako -- 2/3/2022 12:36:25 PM >

(in reply to JanSako)
Post #: 8
RE: Bottlenecks in the Pacific - jansako (J) vs AXE1999... - 2/3/2022 10:26:38 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
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quote:

The allied air force has been largely absent so far, apart of some CAP traps & very few naval attacks. I suspect he is waiting until my agility bonus goes away.


You mean the "Zero bonus"? It does not exist in AE, the Japanese pilots got an exp boost instead.

quote:

And do not overdo it with the expansion of the economy that the supplies to repair increased


Excellent advice Start with expanding LI first for more supply generation. Repairing an LI point costs only 500 supplies in this mod and since one LI point generates 2 supply points, the investment pays off after 250 days instead of 1000. But careful, this will also increase resource requirements and thus pressure on shipping and fuel consumption. Once you produce more supplies, you may invest some into expanding other, more expensive factories - engines and aircraft obviously, then R&D - probably won't have much to spare for vehicle points and repair yards. Expand in small steps and watch the impact, don't expand hundreds of points in one go.

_____________________________


(in reply to JanSako)
Post #: 9
RE: Bottlenecks in the Pacific - jansako (J) vs AXE1999... - 2/4/2022 2:51:17 AM   
the1henson

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 12/6/2013
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Watching with interest. I won't talk much in here because I'm playing my own game using this mod as the allies, and I'm following your opponent as well.

Thanks for putting this out here. There's not a ton of AARs from the red team for this scenario.

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 10
RE: Bottlenecks in the Pacific - jansako (J) vs AXE1999... - 2/4/2022 8:54:04 AM   
JanSako

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 1/16/2022
Status: offline
quote:

You mean the "Zero bonus"? It does not exist in AE, the Japanese pilots got an exp boost instead.

Thanks, that is what being absent for too long gets me!

quote:

Start with expanding LI first for more supply generation.

Without expanding a single LI point, I am still ~15k in daily resource deficit for the whole Empire! I did expand HI a bit but I am no longer repairing these points, at least until I can get more resources & oil flowing in from DEI.

The Home Islands require over 180k resources shipped in daily, on top of the surplus that the Northern islands produce, which also needs to be shipped in.

Fuel 'baseline' is a bit better actually, I am running an Empire-wide industry-needs surplus of a bit over a 1k/day. This means I 'only' need to ship oil to Japan & a bit of fuel for the industry + of course what the shipping needs & reserves. The 'only' number is still north of 10k oil a day so not a small number & I must have DEI to reach some semblance of an equilibrium.

Overall with the LI repair being not as expensive, I think I might expand the LI a bit closer to the front line in the main resource hubs to avoid having to ship even more resources back home, then the supply back out again. That way the supply will already be where it is needed. It will depends om how confident I am in holding there & how much of shipping I will lose to subs.

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 11
RE: Bottlenecks in the Pacific - jansako (J) vs AXE1999... - 2/19/2022 8:53:19 PM   
JanSako

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 1/16/2022
Status: offline
I got this question in a PM & decided to respond here, maybe others will find it useful too:

quote:

Good morning, I'm asking you since you're playing the same mod as me at WITPAE, have you managed to stabilize the flow of resources? I have a deficit of 180k per day and I can't stabilize it even though I have 95% of my Ak on the task, and most of them are on short trips like Shanghai and to ports where they can anchor.


The short answer is that I decided I cannot.

I think one fundamental difference between this mod & stock/other mods is that a Japanese player should not try to ship all resources from the occupied areas to a massively expanded industry in the Home Islands. As you can see from the post above, the shipping requirements for such endeavor are just too large with the DBB-C reduced cargo capacity.

Here are some more thoughts:

- watch the Empire-wide resource production, you will be in negative for a while. If you invested in expanding industry in Japan, stop the repair or turn off some of it. You have too much HI at the beginning, probably too much Small arms as well but that is not such a large drain on HI points.

- HI points can be produced anywhere so if you want to build up a reserve, instead of Japan, you can expand HI in Manchukuo, Shanghai, Hong-Kong, Singapore, DEI - places you expect to hold for the majority of the war - Fuel for this HI will be often produced locally or close by as well so no need to ship it!

- Supply is ONLY produced by LI; and 1 LI point only costs 250 days of supply production to repair, so why not expand LI in places that produce resources & which you can hold for a while? That way you don't need to ship anything anywhere & the supply will be produced where you need it.

- Avoid moving empty ships. Japan does not have the luxury of wasting fuel & hull space on shipping seawater. Dropping off troops/supplies? Make sure to pick up resources on the way back. It requires a bit more micro, but triangular shipping routes are a lot more efficient on cargo space utilization than simple go there-come back routes. (triangular means something like this - load up stuff at place A - drop off at place B - load up other stuff - take to C - load up more stuff or other stuff - go home to A)

- it is OK to shut down some industry in Japan if stuff you need is produced elsewhere - HI, but even supplies (LI). Yes, you can never have enough supplies, but you CAN hold off on full fort & bases expansion on the Home Islands for a bit.

As to convoy organization, I am thinking of running single-ship resource 'convoys' between Korea/Japan & Shanghai/Japan if I can fill the waters there with ASW surface & air patrols enough to keep allied subs away. That way any docking space would be utilized to the max as each ship that comes in will dock & the convoy will never have to wait until the last ship is fully loaded or emptied.
I am thinking this would work until the routes will be in range of aerial attacks.

< Message edited by JanSako -- 2/19/2022 10:15:49 PM >

(in reply to JanSako)
Post #: 12
RE: Bottlenecks in the Pacific - jansako (J) vs AXE1999... - 2/20/2022 7:39:12 PM   
gervabit


Posts: 49
Joined: 7/2/2019
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You are certainly right about many things, but the war effort cannot be carried out entirely with Li from places like Singapore, Rangoon, or Soerabaja. If or if you need to keep the flow of resources to the Metropolis, in my game using almost all the AK, my daily limit is -170K daily, the biggest problem is that even having almost 1M in reserves and having about 800K in transit the HI of Tokyo stops. I don't know if instead of a single HI factory of 2000, 4 of 500 can be made when modeling the MOD.
Almost all of my resource TFs come from places like Shanghai, Keijo, Port Artur, HkKg, and all of them are just the right size for them to dock, but I still can't quite stabilize the economic front.

(in reply to JanSako)
Post #: 13
RE: Bottlenecks in the Pacific - jansako (J) vs AXE1999... - 2/20/2022 9:06:15 PM   
JanSako

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 1/16/2022
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I am not sure what you mean.
For HI, I did mean to suggest expand some in Manchukuo, Korea, maybe Shanghai. The you can shut down the equivalent number in Japan.

Regarding the Tokyo HI, if you stop it for one day & run it for 3, you end up on the same place as if you were to stop 1/4 of the HI all the time.

About the Resource TF sizes, my logic with a single ship TF has more to do with the TF having to wait for the last ship to be fully loaded than if the whole TF fits into port. I would think having a TF that can be fully loaded in one day is more efficient from the throughput standpoint. The sub threat is a different question, of course!

BTW, are your resource stockpiles in the source areas still growing or are you able to ship out everything you mine? If they are still growing & you have no more shipping capacity, then why not use up the resources on the spot.

Maybe the right question to ask is How much industry CAN we feed? Then start from there. If you can only ship in 100k/day, what can you run from that?

I have started an SP run a few days ago as well just to see what happens to the economy later on.

(in reply to gervabit)
Post #: 14
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