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Requesting opinions and help! - 2/16/2021 5:48:33 PM

ViktorKormel

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Help and opinion request!
My old boardgame WIF players group used to play with some house rules. One of them, we used frequently, is that Spain enters the war, joining the axis side, if France is conquered (No Vichy) and the axis (Italy or Germany) spend an offensive chit. What do you think about this rule? It�s too much unbalancing rule or not?
According to this rule, we too used to play that if the allies conquer Spain, they can declare liberate the country, forming Spanish Republica like minor aligned to the liberator mayor power. I would like to implement this some way, modifying the data. Do you think is possible to do it? How?
Thank you for your attention and comments.

Post #: 1

RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/16/2021 5:57:22 PM

CanInf

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wow... If I were Germany I would do whatever it takes to make that happen, even if it means a year's delay to Barbarossa. It means Gibraltar would fall, adds a big force pool with an HQ, a self-garrisoning territory, resources, factories, and opens up Portugal for attack (Lisbon packed with subs is not fun for the UK). But I have no idea how to make it happen in-game.

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/16/2021 6:09:43 PM

ViktorKormel

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Yes, it seems very good for Axis but really is no easy to conquer France and in many games we played the things went bad for the axis choosing this strategy.

Is just an interesting historic variant in our experience.

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/16/2021 6:40:20 PM

davidachamberlain

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I think that it is pretty potentially unbalancing. Though most times, Vichy will be declared, which unless I misunderstand would not trigger the Spanish alignment, frequently, Vichy is cancelled, which I believe would trigger the alignment.

The impact on the game balance would be pretty severe and would certainly be difficult to prevent the capture of Gibraltar and subsequent capture of Egypt and closure of the Med to the Allies. I doubt that after it occurs that it would be feasible for the Allies to achieve anything close to a historical end to the game. I believe that if Germany wants to go after Spain, they will need to work for it - still doable, but getting it for free and earlier is not acceptable.

I can not even guess what should happen to US Entry, but I expect that unless Suez control and Gibraltar control remains with CW that US entry would likely hurt Japan's options.

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/16/2021 7:11:40 PM

ViktorKormel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: davidachamberlain

I think that it is pretty potentially unbalancing. Though most times, Vichy will be declared, which unless I misunderstand would not trigger the Spanish alignment, frequently, Vichy is cancelled, which I believe would trigger the alignment.

The impact on the game balance would be pretty severe and would certainly be difficult to prevent the capture of Gibraltar and subsequent capture of Egypt and closure of the Med to the Allies. I doubt that after it occurs that it would be feasible for the Allies to achieve anything close to a historical end to the game. I believe that if Germany wants to go after Spain, they will need to work for it - still doable, but getting it for free and earlier is not acceptable.

I can not even guess what should happen to US Entry, but I expect that unless Suez control and Gibraltar control remains with CW that US entry would likely hurt Japan's options.

If Vichy is declared, you can not align Spain even if you cancel Vichy after.

It is not free, conquer France is hard if the French player is just an average player and the cost of and early offensive chit is high too. In fact, it is a risky business for Germany if you got not very good rolls,the most benefit use to be to Italy.

How adjust the US entry is a problem in MWIF but not in board game.

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/16/2021 7:40:01 PM

davidachamberlain

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After Paris has fallen, the rest of France will fall soon after. Skipping Vichy would make conquest take a bit longer, but not all that much longer. So, if the Spanish alignment was there, most would choose to continue past Paris to complete conquest. It would be worth it. The main investment, including the O chits would already have been spent to get Paris. Not much more is required after that. A typical 1940 conquest of France leaves about a full year or more to prepare for Barbarossa, so German players will be deciding where to spend their time between Paris and Barbarossa. That might include a Sea Lion invasion on England, going after Spain, going after Egypt, or preparing for an earlier DOW on Russia. After Spain is aligned, there is still time for an Barbarossa.

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/16/2021 8:12:43 PM

ViktorKormel

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Not in my experience, with this rule, french player doesn�t abandon the alps or maginot early, and if you keep Lyon and Toulusse, they are hard nuts to crack. You can defend Marseille too most of the times. In our games, many times Germany is trapped in France until 1941 so it�s impossible 1941 Barbarossa. I just remember one time with France conquered in 1940 S/O with very good german rolls and poor french defense. For me is more troublesome that french defense of Par�s is weaker and to Germany is easier to declare Vichy earlier.

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/16/2021 8:33:16 PM

Centuur

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Toulouse is a fortress in itself. With a French MTN a good GAR/INF and a division on top, the place can get up to 30 defense points. There's a river too which the Germans need to cross. And if the CW are holding Bordeaux, there might be a front line along the river.

But to do this, the French will give up Paris earlier than in normal games.

< Message edited by Centuur -- 2/16/2021 8:34:34 PM >

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/16/2021 9:49:38 PM

brian brian

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I would not recommend playing with this House Rule, which would lead to many Axis victories in my opinion.

But to do it anyway, you would simply need to play with an agreement that on the first Allied impulse after the conquest of metropolitan France, one of the active Allies would declare war on Spain. A minimum give-back to the Allies for that would be allowing the US entry die roll to be manipulated via multiple attempts via re-starting from a save immediately prior.

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Post #: 9

RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/16/2021 9:53:46 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Writing the code for this would be very difficult.

Just in this thread, there were raised a number of issues about the details of the 'rule'. I expect that with a little more thought I could come up with a half dozen more questions about preconditions and after effects.

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/16/2021 11:45:36 PM

Joseignacio

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We used to play a couple of times spending 2 OFF to get Spain. It seems this rule became popular here in Spain, lol.

Even that way it was too powerful.

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/17/2021 1:30:04 PM

ViktorKormel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
I would not recommend playing with this House Rule, which would lead to many Axis victories in my opinion.

I assure you, not so many. If the Axis fails to close the Mediterranean and secure Morocco in 1941, it usually ends up losing or winning by little at best.

quote:

But to do it anyway, you would simply need to play with an agreement that on the first Allied impulse after the conquest of metropolitan France, one of the active Allies would declare war on Spain. A minimum give-back to the Allies for that would be allowing the US entry die roll to be manipulated via multiple attempts via re-starting from a save immediately prior.

We have done this in the two games with MWIF that we have played with this rule. We play with real dice and adjust the values so as not to hurt the US entry. By the way, in one the Axis clearly lost and the other was a draw.

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/17/2021 1:34:41 PM

ViktorKormel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Writing the code for this would be very difficult.

Yes, I know but, I think I could do something to simulate it in some way.

quote:

Just in this thread, there were raised a number of issues about the details of the 'rule'. I expect that with a little more thought I could come up with a half dozen more questions about preconditions and after effects.

I detail the rule so that it is better understood.

A) First Part: Prerequisites and conditions.
1) Metropolitan France must be conquered, no Vichy can be declared.
2) It must be 1940 or 1941.
3) USA musn�t be at war with Germany and / or Italy.
4) Germany or Italy must spend an offensive chit without gaining any benefit.
5) Optional (but used most of the time): Germany or Italy must declare war on Portugal on the same impulse as
Spain is aligned.

B) Second Part, Prerequisites and conditions.

If Nationalist Spain is aligned with the Axis and is conquered, the conquering major power can liberate and align Republican Spain as a minor power.

Steve, in this part two, how can I make Republican Spain appears as a conquered nation at the beginning of the game?

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/17/2021 1:35:08 PM

Joseignacio

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That depends on luck and the quality of players as well.

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/17/2021 1:36:27 PM

ViktorKormel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
We used to play a couple of times spending 2 OFF to get Spain. It seems this rule became popular here in Spain, lol.
Even that way it was too powerful.

In the board game, years ago, we played like that, but it was too easy. The key that rebalances the rule is having to conquer France and not being able to do Vichy France. We introduced this rule on its historical basis, Franco would have entered the war if Hitler had been willing to pay its price and without Vichy France it was possible.

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/17/2021 1:39:33 PM

ViktorKormel

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Here I show you some pictures of our last game playing with this rule. I played with the Axis. I was very, very lucky at the end of the game, in weather and ending turn rolls. I kept 15 objectives but one more impulse and I would have lost. By nations, the Commonwealth won.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/17/2021 1:41:12 PM

ViktorKormel

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Germany

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/17/2021 1:41:59 PM

ViktorKormel

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Japan

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/17/2021 1:42:35 PM

ViktorKormel

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Italy

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/17/2021 1:59:22 PM

Joseignacio

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ViktorKormel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
We used to play a couple of times spending 2 OFF to get Spain. It seems this rule became popular here in Spain, lol.
Even that way it was too powerful.

In the board game, years ago, we played like that, but it was too easy. The key that rebalances the rule is having to conquer France and not being able to do Vichy France. We introduced this rule on its historical basis, Franco would have entered the war if Hitler had been willing to pay its price and without Vichy France it was possible.

I believe in our version you had to collapse Vichy as well, although I am not possitive.

As for Franco, they say he asked for Gibraltar AND half of Vichy's North African Colonies, and GE was not going to give that if they wanted Vivhy loyal.

Some say Franco dodn't want to get into the war, that's why. The country was ravaged by three years of vendetta war by both sides and bombing, however even though the most of the army which was not maimed, or war sick , or needed to return to productive economy (whatever it meant after all this) , some divisions or even corps could have been used and they were experienced soldiers.

Like the Division Azul proved in USSR, some unexperienced rookies but many veterans and cadres.

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/17/2021 3:15:27 PM

ViktorKormel

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Jose Ignacio, and what do you think about liberation of Spanish Republica? We love this rule.

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/17/2021 7:30:30 PM

Joseignacio

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Dont know that one.

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/17/2021 10:00:13 PM

gw15

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Toulouse is a fortress in itself. With a French MTN a good GAR/INF and a division on top, the place can get up to 30 defense points. There's a river too which the Germans need to cross. And if the CW are holding Bordeaux, there might be a front line along the river.

But to do this, the French will give up Paris earlier than in normal games.

Yes, as Peter knows, when We are playing France the mtn guy, another Corp and div in Toulouse. It�s a must for France to do as it forces Axis to declare Vichy.

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/17/2021 10:10:55 PM

Joseignacio

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I did that with the Brit, the div being an AA. And you can probably rescue all or part of them afterwards by sea (if they are organized).

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/19/2021 10:45:10 PM

paulderynck

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You could probably make this work with the existing game.
1) Germany builds or sets aside a starting O-chit and agrees never to use it during the game.
2) CW DoWs Spain.
3) Edit the die roll for US entry so the US does not lose a chit.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 2/19/2021 11:02:27 PM >

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/20/2021 1:02:08 PM

Centuur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

You could probably make this work with the existing game.
1) Germany builds or sets aside a starting O-chit and agrees never to use it during the game.
2) CW DoWs Spain.
3) Edit the die roll for US entry so the US does not lose a chit.

The US will always lose a chit if the CW declares war on the CW. And should there not be an aligment roll which might cause a US entry chit to be added to the entry pool? US entry is the most difficult part to simulate...

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RE: Requesting opinions and help! - 2/21/2021 4:37:49 AM

paulderynck

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You mean CW DoW on Spain of course. I had forgotten the entry number for that. (Probably because I had never, ever seen it done.) In that case you can overcome losing two chits by setting the roll to greater than 7, and you make note of the entry total prior to doing this, and work to make up the difference by setting totals on subsequent chit draws. There is a table on page 100 of RAC that shows what you need to set the "roll" to in order to get a particular chit value.

Most likely this is happening early in the war so there should be plenty of opportunities. Who knows? The chit you lose might even be a zero.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 2/21/2021 4:43:02 AM >

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