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Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 5:19:50 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Tactical bomber based Naval Air rating is not powerful enough.

When I see all the French navy one or two hexes near the Kiel canal and that my tactical bombers can not even scratch the painting of these ships, I am quite upset.




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RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 5:22:27 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		In one turn, I use ALL - I say ALL my tactical bombers and ALL my ground attack bombers to sink two ships. Come one two ships.
And, of course, they will be respawn by Vichy event.





_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 2
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 5:23:24 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		So, comparing the numbers, Carrier based planes have a Naval Air of 8 by default.




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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 3
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 5:23:55 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Ground attack bombers have a Naval Air of 3 by default.




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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 4
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 5:24:28 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Tactical bombers have a Naval Air of 2 by default.




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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 5
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 5:31:25 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Tactical bombers and Ground attack bombers can barely do anything. An invasion fleet with one transport containing a 30 steps corps have all chance to go through. It won't lose the 30 steps.
Those units are useless.

And don't tell me about the Naval Air Training. Gaining 1 point in 1940/1941 or 2 points in 1942/1943 won't change anything.

My proposal is to have by default:
Carrier based planes Naval Air rating: 8
Ground Attack bombers Naval Air rating: 5
Tactical bombers Naval Air rating: 4

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 6
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 6:02:57 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		So pratical example, I am putting all my tactical bombers and all my ground attack bombers on Full Support mode.

Powerful force? Yes/No




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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 7
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 6:04:15 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Answer is No. Guess how many ships have been sunk?

ZERO




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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 8
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 6:05:19 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		My best attack was this one. BB are well protected, max 2 steps lost in an attack.




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_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 9
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 6:10:42 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		Basically you are trying to use bombers designed for land attack with ground attack weapons and pilots that are trained to hit slow or non-moving targets to hit naval wessals.
I would think they should NOT be good at all.

BUT I do feel if you change to "naval air" that should up their naval attack and lower their ground attack accordingly as you are refitting the planes and training the pilots for that. BUT it does not change any of that it only changes the "bonuses"


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Post #: 10
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 6:11:43 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Another example with transport ships. I retake my powerful air force.




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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 11
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 6:12:16 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Taking this land unit (30 steps).




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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 12
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 6:12:48 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Going unescorted there.




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_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 13
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 6:13:38 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Only 6 steps lost. I can invade.




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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 14
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 6:14:22 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		24/30 - let's see how many air attacks I need to sink this fleet.




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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 15
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 6:15:52 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Again four attacks to sink this transport and my air units are all in range. Just imagine if you have to move the air units to attack.




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< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 3/1/2021 6:16:02 PM >

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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 16
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 6:28:19 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
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Status: offline 		Level bombers suck at sinking ships

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Post #: 17
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 6:38:44 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		True Alvaro...they rarely hit anything. Ground Attack are more of a dive bomber but land and sea planes different for most countries.

But I know there were some that they retro fit at least in the Pacific to be naval attack. They put a 75mm cannon on a B25...and that worked out against MS...not sure how it worked against actually attack ships.


I would think that if someone wants to change the planes to Naval Attack there should be some bonus for that and a minus against ground.

But that might be a lot of coding...



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Post #: 18
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 6:40:10 PM   
Nirosi

 

Posts: 1776
Joined: 9/17/2017
Status: offline
quote:

Only 6 steps lost. I can invade.


I agree that such a huge air force should be a little more dangerous to ships even in 1939. One should be afraid to go under enemy bombers without air cover. However, for the land unit a sea, in this example 20% of the ships (more or less) carrying a hole corps where lost. I can only imagine that means a lot of individual ships. But most importantly, that unit can probably not seriously invade because readiness is most probably in the hole!

I have seen it in my previous game when the UK sent an inf to Calais that was caught by a bomber that inflicted 12 or 13 hits (I might have been lucky). After disembarking, the combat value of that inf was actually... zero. My opponent confirmed latter that readiness was down somewhere around 15-20% due to the pounding.

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RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 6:41:57 PM   
Nirosi

 

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quote:

I would think that if someone wants to change the planes to Naval Attack there should be some bonus for that and a minus against ground


Interesting idea. Could represent different ammunitions and different planes.


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Post #: 20
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 7:07:12 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
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From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

quote:

I would think that if someone wants to change the planes to Naval Attack there should be some bonus for that and a minus against ground


Interesting idea. Could represent different ammunitions and different planes.



In 1939, it don't change anything. The Naval Air Training is adding zero everywhere.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Nirosi)
Post #: 21
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 7:19:50 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Level bombers suck at sinking ships


On the contrary, G3M and G4M level bombers were quite good against the Repulse and the Prince of Wales.

And what to say about the HE-111 H-6 with the 1,400kg Fritz X guided bomb?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 22
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 7:29:28 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		Well the guided bomb was for naval attacks.
And the G3 / G4 were pilots trained for naval combat.

I am not sure many German pilots were...since they spent most of the time hitting ground units though not to say there were not.


BUT I do think should be able to change to Naval and say...add 1 to naval attack and subtract 1 from ground.

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Post #: 23
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 9:18:25 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

Well the guided bomb was for naval attacks.
And the G3 / G4 were pilots trained for naval combat.

I am not sure many German pilots were...since they spent most of the time hitting ground units though not to say there were not.


BUT I do think should be able to change to Naval and say...add 1 to naval attack and subtract 1 from ground.


During the Norvegian campaign, RAF reconnaissance soon reported stronger opposition than anticipated, and this, along with the possibility that the Germans might be controlling the shore defences, caused them to recall the force and instead use the aircraft carrier HMS Furious to launch torpedo bombers at the enemy ships. The attack never commenced though, as Luftwaffe bombers launched an assault of their own against the Home Fleet first. This attack sank the destroyer HMS Gurkha and then forced the Home Fleet to withdraw north when their anti-aircraft measures proved ineffective. This German air superiority in the area led the British to decide that all southern regions had to be left to submarines and the RAF, while surface vessels would concentrate on the north.

So, question. Why I don't see this air superiority in the game?

And, again, Naval Air won't change anything in 1939? This tech is adding zero everywhere and barely 1 in 1940.


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 24
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 10:34:11 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		Correct...nothing changes with 1939 Naval...I think it should.

There should be a +1 Naval -2 Tactical across the board for just picking that tech.
Maybe something different for Detection, like +1 and -2 Tactical
And strategic the same.

Since it is a cost...there should be some gain and loss in other places.

That way you differentiate each type with a little something.

I think the same should be the case for Ground tech and Fighter tech...but very minor and bigger loss in other direction.


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Post #: 25
RE: Naval Air values - 3/1/2021 10:57:37 PM   
baloo7777


Posts: 1190
Joined: 5/18/2009
From: eastern CT
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Level bombers suck at sinking ships


On the contrary, G3M and G4M level bombers were quite good against the Repulse and the Prince of Wales.

And what to say about the HE-111 H-6 with the 1,400kg Fritz X guided bomb?


And way back in 1928 (or thereabouts) Billy Mitchell demonstrated to the world how a bomber could sink a naval vessel... using outdated "level" bombers... the Japanese were very interested.
And ground-based air from Henderson field turned back more than one destroyer/transport from delivering troops on Guadalcanal... so there is that (my Uncle was stationed on Guadalcanal in WW2).

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RE: Naval Air values - 3/2/2021 12:35:50 AM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		The Prince of Wales and the Repulse were sunk by land based level bombers (Nells and Bettys).

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Post #: 27
RE: Naval Air values - 3/2/2021 4:37:29 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		This image is guaranteed without special effects




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 28
RE: Naval Air values - 3/3/2021 9:28:22 PM   
Nirosi

 

Posts: 1776
Joined: 9/17/2017
Status: offline 		Hi,

From my experience/games it does feel more or less right with the actual balance. But yes, planes a little more powerful (but not excessively so) would probably be realistic. One thing to consider is that for BBs/BCs/CAs, each unit represent two BBs/BCs/CAs (+escorts) and each CVs contains 2 or 3 CVs (+ escorts). So when we sink two ships in game terms, like in the example at the start of the thread, it probably represents about 4 BBs and also a few destroyers. That would have been be considered a disaster historically for the French and a great German victory.

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Post #: 29
RE: Naval Air values - 3/3/2021 10:12:44 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

This image is guaranteed without special effects





Great picture ....

Japanese airboys trained much more for naval attacks ... in fact, I've seen a VERY similar image for a torpedo attack like you show here ... except those flyers were like 15 ft above the water ....

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Post #: 30
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