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German Benign Occupation?

 
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German Benign Occupation? - 10/14/2021 10:05:38 PM   
TallBlondJohn

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 4/3/2021
Status: offline 		Avalon Hill's The General Magazine, Vol.21 No.4, had a scenario (pages 29-30) for The Russian Campaign which asked the question 'What if the German's were not Nazis?' and allowed the Axis player to recruit whole units from Soviet POWs (not just Hiwis) as well as greatly reduced partisan activity. Here's a link:

http://www.vftt.co.uk/files/AH%20The%20General/The%20General%20Vol%2021%20No%204.pdf

I've always wanted to explore this what-if (I never played The Russian Campaign). Could something like this be done in WITE2 one day? Axis Ukrainian, Russian and Baltics units could tip the balance decisively.

In fact maybe the Soviets would probably need a compensatory boost - maybe no Great Purge?
Post #: 1
RE: German Benign Occupation? - 10/14/2021 10:34:23 PM   
panzer51

 

Posts: 215
Joined: 9/16/2021
Status: offline 		Given that ROA was the Wehrmacht's largest foreign unit at 1.4 million, I'd say it won't tip anything. Germans had structural problems in their economy which they could not solve.

(in reply to TallBlondJohn)
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RE: German Benign Occupation? - 10/15/2021 2:58:13 AM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		I am sure Panzer51 and others will point out many issues with this concept. For example the Axis 'forced labor' based economy would be greatly effected by the implementation of such a program. Producing the necessary arms and equipment with a reduced labor force is an obvious roadblock. Remember, the Axis were not the most pragmatic when it came to new ideas. The refusal to employ women in factories, free workers refusing to work around forced labor, overengineering, the inner squabbles and mass killing of potential workers would make this near impossible to implement. It is a game though and sometimes exploring how far a bovine flies can be amusing.

(in reply to panzer51)
Post #: 3
RE: German Benign Occupation? - 10/15/2021 6:53:39 PM   
kahta

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 9/21/2019
From: Arkansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

Given that ROA was the Wehrmacht's largest foreign unit at 1.4 million, I'd say it won't tip anything. Germans had structural problems in their economy which they could not solve.


I tend to agree, but I think the "what if" factor that such a detailed game like WITE2 opens up is worth trying something like this out once the editor changes have been published.

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1942 Alt History: Endsieg

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Post #: 4
RE: German Benign Occupation? - 10/15/2021 8:49:16 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 452
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline
quote:

'What if the German's were not Nazis?'

It leads to:
no Hitler and his "Mein Kampf"
no Anschluss of Austria
no Munich and divide of Czechoslovakia
no Polish campaign
etc.
hmm... even no a reason for WiTE2 =D

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RE: German Benign Occupation? - 10/31/2021 12:45:18 PM   
IslandInland


Posts: 891
Joined: 12/8/2014
From: YORKSHIRE
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallBlondJohn

Avalon Hill's The General Magazine, Vol.21 No.4, had a scenario (pages 29-30) for The Russian Campaign which asked the question 'What if the German's were not Nazis?' and allowed the Axis player to recruit whole units from Soviet POWs (not just Hiwis) as well as greatly reduced partisan activity. Here's a link:

http://www.vftt.co.uk/files/AH%20The%20General/The%20General%20Vol%2021%20No%204.pdf

I've always wanted to explore this what-if (I never played The Russian Campaign). Could something like this be done in WITE2 one day? Axis Ukrainian, Russian and Baltics units could tip the balance decisively.

In fact maybe the Soviets would probably need a compensatory boost - maybe no Great Purge?



Yes, I think this is very doable with the editor.

You could do most of it through events. There are many Partisan events in the game which can be disabled. New Russian-manned Axis units can be added in the editor.

It would probably be only fair to reduce German production for some equipment to reflect the lack of labour. Reduce Soviet manpower levels also as now every civilian doesn't feel the need to run away to the east as fast as possible.

Soviet Garrison Theatre Box requirements could be drastically reduced and German and Axis minors security formations could be converted to full strength infantry divisions and become available for deployment on the front line.

I've read the article you linked to and it seems like an intriguing idea for a what-if scenario and one that might be reasonably quick to build and more importantly one that doesn't need any changes to generic data so it should work without having to wait for the upcoming patches to fix problems with the editor.



< Message edited by IslandInland -- 10/31/2021 1:13:49 PM >

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War In The East 2 Beta Tester and
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Post #: 6
RE: German Benign Occupation? - 10/31/2021 4:13:19 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		Quote from the article:
"The total mobilization of the German women in 1940 rendered forced labor in the Reich by foreigners unnecessary; and large numbers of volunteers were recruited from the millions of Russian prisoners taken during the great encirclements of 1941 and 1942."

This would be a total about face of Fascist past behavior. It would be equivalent of of them supporting Jewish scientist to invent radar or the A bomb before the Western allies.

Why not release the million French POWs held hostage and see if they volunteered to fight in the crusade against the Communist threat?

Why not negotiate a truce or peace treaty with the U.K?

What if Stalin did not occupy Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania or Bessberabia? Or was successful in Finland. Or did not purge his officer corps. Or starve the the Ukraine.
Why because it was not feasible from their perspective. I hope I am not stepping on toes but these 'What Ifs' make good fantasy stories but should not be taken seriously. The leopard will not change his spots.





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“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”

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Post #: 7
RE: German Benign Occupation? - 11/2/2021 4:23:48 AM   
IslandInland


Posts: 891
Joined: 12/8/2014
From: YORKSHIRE
Status: offline 		It's a "what if" like the "have no theatre boxes and all units available to the Axis what if". You seemed quite keen on that scenario as you said you were looking forward to it.

It's a game and there is an editor so anything that can changed or added or deleted with the editor is feasible.

If you don't like a particular "what if" scenario then don't play it but please don't discourage others from trying out things.


_____________________________

War In The East 2 Beta Tester and
War In The West Operation Torch Beta Tester
XXXCorps

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Post #: 8
RE: German Benign Occupation? - 12/4/2021 6:02:52 PM   
onlysane1

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 12/12/2017
Status: offline 		It could be argued that Germany could have won WWII if they weren't Nazis.

But if they weren't Nazis, they wouldn't have started WWII.

(in reply to IslandInland)
Post #: 9
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