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Building the red army - 8/17/2021 7:01:59 PM   
squatter

 

Posts: 1033
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		Once you hit mid 1942 and tank corps are available, what are folks' thoughts on how to manage the red army's armour?

How many tank corps do folks build in 1942?

Should you make tank corps out of every tank brigade/motorised brigade that you have already built?

Does anyone continue to operate tank brigade SUs placed in infantry or tank corps, or is it best to use all the SUs to build tank corps?

All thoughts welcome - or perhaps there's a thread already which I missed...

Thanks
Post #: 1
RE: Building the red army - 8/17/2021 11:59:22 PM   
IanW

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 8/12/2021
Status: offline 		In the First World War, the German army's theory of defense was based around a weakly-held first line that fundamentally slows and disorganises the attacker, and then counter-attack forces that hit the disorganised enemy forces before they can entrench in the ground gained.

If they repeat that when the Red Army goes back on the offensive, are you better off with small brigades of just tanks that can race through a gap and take further objectives but will probably get unable to hold if hit with a serious counter attack, or a smaller number of larger all-arms force that can hold against an enemy counter-attack ?

(in reply to squatter)
Post #: 2
RE: Building the red army - 8/18/2021 3:28:03 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IanW

In the First World War, the German army's theory of defense was based around a weakly-held first line that fundamentally slows and disorganises the attacker, and then counter-attack forces that hit the disorganised enemy forces before they can entrench in the ground gained.

If they repeat that when the Red Army goes back on the offensive, are you better off with small brigades of just tanks that can race through a gap and take further objectives but will probably get unable to hold if hit with a serious counter attack, or a smaller number of larger all-arms force that can hold against an enemy counter-attack ?



Tank brigades are not on-map units in this game.

(in reply to IanW)
Post #: 3
RE: Building the red army - 8/18/2021 3:30:38 AM   
IanW

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 8/12/2021
Status: offline 		Oops, I was thinking of the on-map mech units :)

< Message edited by IanW -- 8/18/2021 3:31:35 AM >

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 4
RE: Building the red army - 8/18/2021 3:43:32 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

Once you hit mid 1942 and tank corps are available, what are folks' thoughts on how to manage the red army's armour?

How many tank corps do folks build in 1942?

Should you make tank corps out of every tank brigade/motorised brigade that you have already built?

Does anyone continue to operate tank brigade SUs placed in infantry or tank corps, or is it best to use all the SUs to build tank corps?

All thoughts welcome - or perhaps there's a thread already which I missed...

Thanks



My 2 Kopecs:

1. The limitation on Tank Corps is available TRUCKS. Don't build more if you don't have the TRUCKS. Otherwise, they are valuable. Same for MECH CORPS; Mech Corps are stronger due to more infantry included, but are also truck hogs, so you need to be careful how many you build
2. For various reasons, it's probably better to create from existing Tank Bdes, as you have alot. Find the GUARDS ones and use two of them to create a GUARDS corps.
3. Remaining Tank Brigades are very useful; attach them liberally to Corps units, including Tank Corps (why not?), Cav Corps, and Rifle Corps for extra tank support. You can use them as SU's attached to Armies, but I prefer to save those slots for Artillery.

I don't see a reason to ever disband a Tank Brigade. You should have enough tanks and men. In terms of TRUCKS, there are other units I would start to disband before Tank Brigades if you are short on trucks.

_____________________________


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Post #: 5
RE: Building the red army - 8/18/2021 6:25:36 PM   
squatter

 

Posts: 1033
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks Q-Ball - really useful stuff.

Talking trucks: So when the soviet player looks at his truck pool, and let's say he sees 20k trucks there, is that 20k trucks going to waste that he should build new units to use up?

Also, as Soviet player approx how many tank corps will you build to in 42?

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Post #: 6
RE: Building the red army - 8/19/2021 3:47:15 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

Thanks Q-Ball - really useful stuff.

Talking trucks: So when the soviet player looks at his truck pool, and let's say he sees 20k trucks there, is that 20k trucks going to waste that he should build new units to use up?

Also, as Soviet player approx how many tank corps will you build to in 42?


Keeping a truck surplus is not a bad thing. 20-24 tank corps should be all that you need.

(in reply to squatter)
Post #: 7
RE: Building the red army - 8/19/2021 7:35:04 AM   
Slush

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Danmark
Status: offline 		The early tank corps are weak and brittle. Bolster them with a motorised brigade or two. It's also a good idea to let the tank corps operate alongside a cavalry corps or two, they are a great early subsitute for the mech corps.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 8
RE: Building the red army - 8/19/2021 8:13:54 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

....

Talking trucks: So when the soviet player looks at his truck pool, and let's say he sees 20k trucks there, is that 20k trucks going to waste that he should build new units to use up?

...


Specific to this, there is a larger issue. Up to lets say late 1942 you are operating next to your rail net and should have lots of depots (pretty much every feasible location), so in terms of depot-unit delivery is not a big issue (apart from a few geograohical spots).

As you advance you are going to hit all the problems the Axis had in 41 and 42 but multiplied up. They had an army of say 4m to supply and can't manage it, you will have 6m+, a lot more guns and a lot more motorised elements.

Linked to this, you'll find that LL allocation of trucks only really hits the levels you need in 1944.

So some degree of truck shortage is going to be inevitable in 1943.

If you look at the pre-release Soviet AAR I put up, you'll get some sort of feel where this leads you. A good eg, is I built up on the Don around Voronezh, recaptured Kharkov a few turns later and then had to sit on that line for about 6 weeks.

While you have much more rail repair assets, managing the trade off between repair rate and super-depots is a real constant challenge - not helped as much more than the Axis you can't live off a few large depots, you need that secondary network.

So this is less 'keep x trucks' back and more be prepared for what is going to hit you.

One useful trick (& also bit pitfall), units in the national reserve don't hold a truck stock. The good thing is you can tank/mech corps there, training up etc, but it can also give you a misleading view as to your real truck reserve. When you bring them, put them on/next to a NSS and be prepared to leave them for a couple of turns to gain their trucks (no pt having a tank corps with 20 MP).

The other truck related issue is that rocket formations are the way around your enduring shortage of heavier artillery. But ... they need trucks, so its not just the armoured corps that you need to keep mobile

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Post #: 9
RE: Building the red army - 8/19/2021 5:52:36 PM   
squatter

 

Posts: 1033
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks guys that's great stuff.

Until you've completed a full campaign it's all those estimations of future truck use that are hard to judge without having lived through it!

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 10
RE: Building the red army - 8/19/2021 6:34:09 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

....

Talking trucks: So when the soviet player looks at his truck pool, and let's say he sees 20k trucks there, is that 20k trucks going to waste that he should build new units to use up?

...

The other truck related issue is that rocket formations are the way around your enduring shortage of heavier artillery. But ... they need trucks, so its not just the armoured corps that you need to keep mobile



Absolutely right. I just fill out the existing rocket formations provided. All the new stuff starts in 1943 with the arrival of the 300mm rockets. They are fired from ground mounted crates and require very few trucks,

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Post #: 11
RE: Building the red army - 8/19/2021 6:38:41 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		One piece of advice, build all the Cav Corps you can. They are very useful units; good mobility, but don't cost you trucks.

Also liberally attach SUs to those Cav Corps. A couple Rifle Brigades and a Tank Unit, or 1 and 2, whatever your flavor. But I like Rifle Brigades for extra heft.

Cav Corps are just the best....it's a good thing there is a hard limit, because if there wasn't I would probably build like 50

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 8/19/2021 6:40:09 PM >

_____________________________


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Post #: 12
RE: Building the red army - 8/19/2021 6:58:52 PM   
Firewire9452

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 4/1/2021
Status: offline 		To the extent it’s relevant to your playstyle, the Soviets historically build around 31 tank corps, of which maybe 24 saw combat.

I think the more interesting question about early tank corps isn’t how many—that’s limited by truck stocks—but how to balance the tank corps against the mechanized corps. The latter have more infantry and holding power early, but the former put your extensive tank production to better use and are probably more truck efficient. And of course, you can bolster the staying power of the tank corps by adding SUs (which eat more trucks). My current thinking—and I don’t claim to be an expert at the game—was to build 20-25 guards tank corps when I had enough guards brigades to do so, exhaust any surplus tank production by attaching tank bridges to guards rifle corps in suitable terrain (central and southern fronts) and to cavalry corps, and then building mechanized corps afterwards, if there was a truck surplus. My goal here was to take advantage of the quite large Soviet tank production in the best truck efficient manner, ensure use of tank bridges to allow for guards corps, and to prioritize tanks corps over mech corps because I’ve heard they have better long term potential once their toes upgrade in 1944 and because they aren’t as much of a truck hog. I found that the cavalry
Corps could do a good enough job of holding flanks for an exploit, supplemented by a few
Mech corps.







< Message edited by Firewire9452 -- 8/19/2021 7:01:20 PM >

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 13
RE: Building the red army - 8/19/2021 7:22:19 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Firewire9452

To the extent it’s relevant to your playstyle, the Soviets historically build around 31 tank corps, of which maybe 24 saw combat.

I think the more interesting question about early tank corps isn’t how many—that’s limited by truck stocks—but how to balance the tank corps against the mechanized corps. The latter have more infantry and holding power early, but the former put your extensive tank production to better use and are probably more truck efficient. And of course, you can bolster the staying power of the tank corps by adding SUs (which eat more trucks). My current thinking—and I don’t claim to be an expert at the game—was to build 20-25 guards tank corps when I had enough guards brigades to do so, exhaust any surplus tank production by attaching tank bridges to guards rifle corps in suitable terrain (central and southern fronts) and to cavalry corps, and then building mechanized corps afterwards, if there was a truck surplus. My goal here was to take advantage of the quite large Soviet tank production in the best truck efficient manner, ensure use of tank bridges to allow for guards corps, and to prioritize tanks corps over mech corps because I’ve heard they have better long term potential once their toes upgrade in 1944 and because they aren’t as much of a truck hog. I found that the cavalry
Corps could do a good enough job of holding flanks for an exploit, supplemented by a few
Mech corps.


What you are describing is more of a wish list than anything else. You will likely never have the truck fleet to support such a heavy mechanized-tank force. Truth be told, you don't even need to bother with mechanized corps.

(in reply to Firewire9452)
Post #: 14
RE: Building the red army - 8/19/2021 8:27:51 PM   
Firewire9452

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 4/1/2021
Status: offline 		I prefer to think of it as a prioritization or triage system—what goal is most important, which is second, etc. But I suppose wish list is as good of a description as those.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 15
RE: Building the red army - 8/20/2021 10:38:11 AM   
Slush

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Danmark
Status: offline 		BTW: Top tip for the Soviet player in 1944'ish, when playing against the AI. Disband the airforce - especially if you're using AI assist. That will dramatically improve your supply situation and speed up the final push into Germany.

(in reply to Firewire9452)
Post #: 16
RE: Building the red army - 8/20/2021 11:21:55 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		If that top tip above is even remotely close to truth, there is something wrong in how the game pans out.

(in reply to Slush)
Post #: 17
RE: Building the red army - 8/20/2021 1:59:41 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		It doesn't have to be. Depends how much you deployed and where.

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 18
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