German AVF´s and there use

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

German AVF´s and there use

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> German AVF´s and there use

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

German AVF´s and there use - 11/20/2001 6:10:00 PM

pax27

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/19/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline

I´d like to know wich german AFV´s were the most common and wich were the best (for there purpose) during different stages of the war, let´s say by year, front etc. Also I´d like some educated soul (sole?) to explane the use of these AFV´s, how they excelled and where they failed.

_____________________________

Post #: 1

- 11/20/2001 11:07:00 PM

Grumble

Posts: 471
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Omaha, NE, USA
Status: offline

From about 1936 until late 1940, the most common German AFVs were PzI, and PzII. The Czech vehicles Pz35t/Pz38t were used primarily in only two divisions. The PzIII/PzIV series were less common-the fact of slow production for these designs was the reason behind using the Czech vehicles rather than converting the factories to German designed tanks.
From late 1940 through 1943, the PzIII in its many variants was what would be called now the "Main Battle Tank" of the armored forces. PzIVs were still in the support role,and the PzI/IIs either withdrawn, rebuilt or used for recce.
The ongoing problem with dealing with Russian T34 and KV AFVs, led to the demise of the PzIII; as it couldn't be upgunned. The PzIV had the room for a larger weapon and took the place of the PzIII as the MBT from 1943-45. PzIII chassis were used to build the "STurmGeschutze" assault gun/tank destroyers, which were used as independent units or assigned to PzGrenadier divisions.
The Panther was specifically designed to best the T34 series, and handle any Western Allied vehicle. Production of it started in 1943, and continued for the rest of the war. Ideally, by early '44, Panzer Divisions had one battalion of PzIVs and one of Panthers, but slow production seldom gave units their full allotment (Waffen SS units fared somewhat better in this regard).
The Tiger series should be considered very rare (only 1250 TigerIs were built and some 900 TigerIIs).
From mid-war on, consider the JagdPanzers probably more common than tanks, with the StuG series the most common as mentioned above.
For halftracks, these were relatively rare, with only one battalion in a Panzer Division so equipped. Everyone else used trucks, or horse-drawn wagons.

_____________________________

"...these go up to eleven."
Nigel Tufnel

(in reply to pax27)

Post #: 2

- 11/21/2001 12:52:00 AM

Belisarius

Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline

Grumble got it down pretty well.

To sum it up:
Early war years: PzI & II, where PzI was totally unsuited for any combat vs. armored units. (it was designed from the very beginning as a trainer tank). The II's were also undergunned, but faired well against most pre-war tanks. Later on, most II's were used for recon or rebuilt, e.g. as flamethrowers. At this point III's and IV's did also see combat as support weapons. If I'm not totally lost, both were equipped with the Kwk50 L/24 gun, which pretty soon became obsolete. The best tank in this period may well be the 38(t).

Mid-war: Pz III & IV. There are lots of versions to them, each with their advantages. My fav' is the PzIV in this case. Mostly for its ability to fit larger guns, and that it was the only tank designed in the pre-war years that made it throughout the war w/out becoming obsolete. (again, thanks to the big turret) Late war: Pz IV, StuG (both III's and IV's)..
Panthers were used quite much from early -44, but the PzIV's outnumbered them by far. Tigers and KingTigers (~470 built, not 900!) were assigned to special Heavy Companies (sPzAbt) attached at corps level. They were used as 'firefighters' and shipped from point to point at the front were they were needed most (i.e. everywhere

). The only divisions to have organic Tiger companies were the 1st SS (LSSAH), and army Grossdeutschland and Lehr divisions. (correct me if I'm wrong) As for 'best for its' purpose award' I'd say the StuGIII. StuGs were organized as artillery rather than tanks, but they still did one amazing work. Don't know if I added anything useful, just felt like scribble something down

_____________________________

Got StuG?

(in reply to pax27)

Post #: 3

- 11/21/2001 3:44:00 PM

Galka

Posts: 129
Joined: 4/30/2000
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Belisarius:
The only divisions to have organic Tiger companies were the 1st SS (LSSAH), and army Grossdeutschland and Lehr divisions. (correct me if I'm wrong) As for 'best for its' purpose award' I'd say the StuGIII. StuGs were organized as artillery rather than tanks, but they still did one amazing work. :

I didn't know GD had organic Tigers but indeed they did.
Other Divisions include DasReich, Totenkopf, and Panzer Division Muencheberg. Agreed the StugIII was quite a workhorse. Too bad they are not modelled very well in the game.

_____________________________

"In light of my experience, I consider that your conclusion that the attacker needs a three to one superiority is under the mark, rather than over it. I would say that, for success, the attacker needs six to one or seven to one against a well-knit defence

(in reply to pax27)

Post #: 4

- 11/21/2001 7:20:00 PM

pax27

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/19/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline

Thank´s a bunch guys. So now, how did one of those famed SS Panzer Divisions look like. In real life I mean, not how they should or would look like, that I know already. Was it the 2:nd divisons that was called "Deutchland" and the 5:th later in the war called "Viking"?

_____________________________

(in reply to pax27)

Post #: 5

- 11/22/2001 3:28:00 AM

Belisarius

Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by pax27:
Thank´s a bunch guys. So now, how did one of those famed SS Panzer Divisions look like. In real life I mean, not how they should or would look like, that I know already. Was it the 2:nd divisons that was called "Deutchland" and the 5:th later in the war called "Viking"?

A quick summary: 1SS PzDiv "LeibStandarte des Adolf Hitlers"
2SS PzDiv "Das Reich"
3SS PzDiv "Totenkopf"
4SS PzDiv "Polizei"
5SS PzDiv "Wiking"
6SS GebirgsDiv "Nord"
7SS Freiwilligen Gebirgs Div "Prinz Eugen"
8SS Kavallerie Div "Florian Geyer"
9SS PzDiv "Hohenstaufen"
10SS PzDiv "Frundsberg"
11SS Freiwilligen PzGrDiv "Nordland"
12SS PzDiv "Hitlerjugend"
... in all, there were about 40 named SS divisions, but not all were in service simultaneously, some had a very short lifespan and others were not really divisions either. A typical Panzer Division would have around 20,000 men in its ranks, two tank regiments and two to three infantry regiments for support, amongst others. As for the name, the 2nd division "Das Reich" was originally made up of the three Standarte regiments "Deutschland", "Germania" and "Der Führer". After the French campaign, "Germania" was detached from the division and would later form the 5th "Wiking" division along with ethnic german units from the occupied territories. At this time, the 2nd divisions name was changed from "Deutschland" to "Das Reich" to avoid confusion with the army "Großdeutschland" division.

There is one other link between the 2nd and 5th divisions - they were the ones involved in the most fierce fighting of all SS divisions. Note that most divisions didn't recieve their 'division' status until -42, and they were almost exclusively infantry organisations in the early war years. Tons of info on this can be found e.g. here:
Elite Forces of the Third Reich

_____________________________

Got StuG?

(in reply to pax27)

Post #: 6

- 11/22/2001 3:58:00 AM

Tombstone

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline

1, 2, 3, 5 are the real heavy hitters of the war. They were around about the whole war and got into a lot of fighting. 1, 2, 3 cruised around a lot together in the 2nd SS Pz Corps. I know that at Zitadelle they all had a lot of half-tracks, and a panzer rgt with an extra tiger company. At Kursk they were called PzGrenadier Divisions and looked somewhat like this: Pz Rgt
HvyPzCo (10-12 tigers)
2 Pz Bn (roughly 40 PzIV, and 40 PzIII) 2 PzGren Rgt
3 PzGren Bn

Assault Gun Bn
~30 StuG Recon Bn
Armored cars, Mech Inf, some AT guns, mortars AT Bn
~Some marders and AT guns Eng Bn
~some of them mechanized FlAK Bn
Lots of SPAA and some 88s Arty Rgt
1 Bn of SPA (2xbty Wespe, 1xbty Hummel)
1 Bn of med art ( 3xbty 105 + 1bty 155 )
1 Bn of guns( 3xbty 150 K18 )
Tomo

_____________________________

(in reply to pax27)

Post #: 7

- 11/22/2001 9:45:00 PM

pax27

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/19/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline

thanks for all the info and a big tack så mycket to Belisarius for the link!

_____________________________

(in reply to pax27)

Post #: 8