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Elites..... - 6/16/2001 12:26:00 AM

sven

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After some reflection I have decided that I was wrong about the Germans having too many elites. I am asking that all US and USMC forces lose their elite status. No Commonwealth unit should be elite either. Why you ask? Well I figure in order to an Elite you must have surrendered in groups of 100,000 or more. That pretty much excludes all the allies but france and Russia, and includes all the German units.(the Japanese are excluded too by the way) This way all the Afrika Korpse, 6th Army, and Army Group Center are included. Throw in the entire French Army and most of Russia too. I have seen the light. thanks, sven [ June 17, 2001: Message edited by: sven ]

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- 6/16/2001 12:52:00 AM

Belisarius

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I don't get it. Please explain. If this is an attemt of irony to point out that troops w/ large surrender numbers can't be called 'elite', it's lame. Training. Equipment. [ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Belisarius ]

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- 6/16/2001 12:55:00 AM

Brummagem

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The fog is thick in here.

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- 6/16/2001 12:57:00 AM

Warrior

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quote:

Originally posted by sven: [QB]I am asking that all US and USMC forces lose their elite status. [QB]

No, no, no! I want my cooks to have elite status. They can kill Tiger tanks by feeding the crews US Army chow.

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- 6/16/2001 1:01:00 AM

sven

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quote:

Originally posted by Belisarius: I don't get it. Please explain. If this is an attemt of irony to point out that troops w/ large surrender numbers can't be called 'elite', it's lame. Training. Equipment. [ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Belisarius ]

I agree that is why all German forces should be elite... I said no US force was elite....

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- 6/16/2001 1:08:00 AM

Fabs

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??????????????????????????????

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- 6/16/2001 1:11:00 AM

Belisarius

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So the fog thickens... German troops did, well up into '43, recieve better training (and in some cases, better equipment), than their counterparts. Regular troops as well as troops with 'elite' status. Ofcourse did e.g. the US army have it's fair share of elites as well with excellent training. But what they (and Russia, and England, and...) DID have that the Germans lacked was a staggering amount of materiel and superb logistics. But I don't have to point that out, do I?

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- 6/16/2001 1:11:00 AM

sven

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quote:

Originally posted by Fabs: ??????????????????????????????

What confuses you Fabs? Come chat...

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- 6/16/2001 1:15:00 AM

sven

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quote:

Originally posted by Belisarius: So the fog thickens... German troops did, well up into '43, recieve better training (and in some cases, better equipment), than their counterparts. Regular troops as well as troops with 'elite' status. Ofcourse did e.g. the US army have it's fair share of elites as well with excellent training. But what they (and Russia, and England, and...) DID have that the Germans lacked was a staggering amount of materiel and superb logistics. But I don't have to point that out, do I?

Agreed according to my criterion all German forces were elite....

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- 6/16/2001 1:21:00 AM

Brummagem

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It wasn't just training in general. The ability to progress to elite comes partially from the type of training. Early on the German's were able to work well in small isolated groups, they had been taught to think and react independently. Later the US, British and others followed suit. To not allow US Rangers and British Commandos to achieve Elite status would be very unreal. As far as the German's go, the soldiers / pilots that didn't die saw a lot of war and became very proficent at their craft. I can think of a few Tiger commanders with 3 figure kill totals that give new meaning to the word elite.

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- 6/16/2001 1:21:00 AM

sven

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quote:

Originally posted by Belisarius: So the fog thickens... German troops did, well up into '43, recieve better training (and in some cases, better equipment), than their counterparts. Regular troops as well as troops with 'elite' status. Ofcourse did e.g. the US army have it's fair share of elites as well with excellent training. But what they (and Russia, and England, and...) DID have that the Germans lacked was a staggering amount of materiel and superb logistics. But I don't have to point that out, do I?

Also according to my criterion none of those snivelling US forces were...

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- 6/16/2001 1:22:00 AM

AmmoSgt

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Seriously the ratings on the Gurkhas need looking at they were a bit more than elite Indian troops they were Elite worldclass troops Maybe they could at least start in the Brit OOB so they have Brit basic values and national charcteristics to better Model them

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- 6/16/2001 1:25:00 AM

sven

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quote:

Originally posted by Brummagem: It wasn't just training in general. The ability to progress to elite comes partially from the type of training. Early on the German's were able to work well in small isolated groups, they had been taught to think and react independently. Later the US, British and others followed suit. To not allow US Rangers and British Commandos to achieve Elite status would be very unreal. As far as the German's go, the soldiers / pilots that didn't die saw a lot of war and became very proficent at their craft. I can think of a few Tiger commanders with 3 figure kill totals that give new meaning to the word elite.

Wholeheartedly agree with you. Wehrmacht tank aces were 'elite'. So was a lot of the SS. sven

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- 6/16/2001 1:25:00 AM

Brummagem

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Agreed Ammo, and how about the Scots..Black Guard and all...Very brave, and fierce.

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- 6/16/2001 1:30:00 AM

AmmoSgt

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Maybe Elite should mean any troops that can sucessfully amphibiously assault prepared beach defenses at least once?

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- 6/16/2001 1:37:00 AM

Brummagem

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That would be tough to accomplish in the middle of the desert. :D

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- 6/16/2001 1:39:00 AM

Brummagem

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Anybody ever figure out were Sven was going with his original arguement...oh wait a minute....is that sarcasm I'm seeing....can't tell it's still a bit foggy.

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- 6/16/2001 1:40:00 AM

AmmoSgt

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US Troops managed to do it in Tunsia , didn't look to hard for real elite troops

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- 6/16/2001 1:45:00 AM

sven

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quote:

Originally posted by Brummagem: Anybody ever figure out were Sven was going with his original arguement...oh wait a minute....is that sarcasm I'm seeing....can't tell it's still a bit foggy.

Brumm... I finally come over to the 'right' side of this arguement and this is the thanks I get? Obviously all the defeated Germany's forces were elite. I have seen the light. so were France, Russia, and a lot of other MIGHTY NATIONS...

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- 6/16/2001 2:22:00 AM

Brummagem

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Ammo, you are so right. Sven, sorry just my vain attempt at humor. To everyone, I think that anyone, who has died in battle, for at least one brief moment was...elite.

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- 6/16/2001 2:29:00 AM

sven

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quote:

Originally posted by Brummagem: Ammo, you are so right. Sven, sorry just my vain attempt at humor. To everyone, I think that anyone, who has died in battle, for at least one brief moment was...elite.

amen... and Brumm it was a joke... I am not anti German just anti unbalance in the game. Hell I'm 1/2 German.

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- 6/16/2001 4:39:00 AM

Brummagem

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No problem, balance is good. Of course having to work with a perceived weakness can make your opponent a little over confident. :) Of course having your Tiger turn into a smoking hulk because a 37 mm got in a lucky shot isn't much fun either.

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- 6/16/2001 6:45:00 AM

ruxius

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It's not the first time I can say sven sees unbalance where Germans are 'into' the dealing... The only elite troops he found were Germans ? Regularly follows a comment or a pray or a question about US Army... It seems sometimes the game is not always a game...

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- 6/16/2001 6:48:00 AM

sven

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quote:

Originally posted by ruxius: It's not the first time I can say sven sees unbalance where Germans are 'into' the dealing... The only elite troops he found were Germans ? Regularly follows a comment or a pray or a question about US Army... It seems sometimes the game is not always a game...

No Ruxius... read carefully.... I am just amazed that some think all Germans were elite.... of course using the surrendered in groups of 100,000 or more as the criterion Italy was elite too. ;)

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- 6/16/2001 7:03:00 AM

ruxius

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quote:

Originally posted by sven: of course using the surrendered in groups of 100,000 or more as the criterion Italy was elite too.

ah ! ah ! ah ! No comments, only confirmations... I still can't see the amazingator's post here... :rolleyes:

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- 6/16/2001 8:23:00 AM

BruceAZ

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by sven: [QB]After some reflection I have decided that I was wrong about the Germans having too many elites. I am asking that all US and USMC forces lose their elite status. TELL THAT TO THE MARINES ON GUADALCANAL...

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- 6/16/2001 8:34:00 AM

sven

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quote:

Originally posted by 5thRecon: [QUOTE]Originally posted by sven: [QB]After some reflection I have decided that I was wrong about the Germans having too many elites. I am asking that all US and USMC forces lose their elite status. TELL THAT TO THE MARINES ON GUADALCANAL...

Recon... Read it again. If you still don't get it e-mail me and I will explain it to you... it is not what you think. really, sven

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- 6/17/2001 1:56:00 AM

Tombstone

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I think the term 'elite' is abused too much. No one in WW2 came out of training (no matter what kind)'elite'. The germans had better training than most of the world early in the war, and this is reflected in the game by having a higher quality rating. This whole elite thing is more of an altar upon which fanboys can worship the god of hype than anything relevant. In a perfect world you would be able to spend more points on ANY unit and increase it's experience value, indicating levels of experience. That way you could buy a platoon of regular infantry that's seen hell twice over and make them veteran (or better). But, aside from specific units that had specific experience all the force quality issues in SPWAW are resolved by force quality itself. Morale is a different (and not insignificant) issue altogether. I kinda like the idea of 'fanatical' units who would have an increase in morale but not in skill or experience. This models much of the aparent enhanced performance of a lot of the famous unit 'types' out there. Those specific unit types that are 'better' than others like parachute infantry, SS, and reconnaisance units are cool for being different, but in the end it's what you do with them that really counts. Tomo

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- 6/17/2001 1:20:00 PM

Randy

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I think the term "elite" would indicate forces that have been given specialized training (ie. paratroopers, mtn. infantry/Rangers/Commandos, amphibious troops/Marines/naval infantry)who also have specialized missions. The Waffen SS was considered as an elite force since besides their military status, they were also a politically indoctrinated force. Semper Fi Randy

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- 6/17/2001 2:49:00 PM

sven

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quote:

Originally posted by Tombstone:
I think the term 'elite' is abused too much. No one in WW2 came out of training (no matter what kind)'elite'. The germans had better training than most of the world early in the war, and this is reflected in the game by having a higher quality rating.
This whole elite thing is more of an altar upon which fanboys can worship the god of hype than anything relevant.

In a perfect world you would be able to spend more points on ANY unit and increase it's experience value, indicating levels of experience. That way you could buy a platoon of regular infantry that's seen hell twice over and make them veteran (or better). But, aside from specific units that had specific experience all the force quality issues in SPWAW are resolved by force quality itself.

Morale is a different (and not insignificant) issue altogether.
I kinda like the idea of 'fanatical' units who would have an increase in morale but not in skill or experience. This models much of the aparent enhanced performance of a lot of the famous unit 'types' out there. Those specific unit types that are 'better' than others like parachute infantry, SS, and reconnaisance units are cool for being different, but in the end it's what you do with them that really counts.

Tomo

You are the closest To my real idea of elite. No army was totally elite.(except maybe finland(no sarcasm) I think certain people want to push balance in a cart over a cliff.

regards,
sven

p.s. Not accusing anyone in particular.

;)

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