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Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/6/2004 9:59:47 AM   
Jim D Burns


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Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		After spending some time looking over the allied production needs tonight using the totals posted earlier by von Murrin (Thanks for adding them up), I’m struck by the fact there is only 75 oil available in India (I’m not counting Mandalay since it wasn’t available much of the war). Multiplied by six, that leaves 450 oil to run 2205 Heavy Industry in India, a shortfall of 1755 oil a day.

The Allies would need to ship 640575 oil a year to India from the U.S., to keep the HI running at top peak. With 3900 oil (650*6) a day in the U.S. feeding 3320 HI, that leaves an overage of 580 oil a day, or just 211700 extra oil a year, far short of India’s needs to say nothing about OZ, who will use every drop of that overage and still come up short of their 919800 extra oil per year needed over and above what they produce (2970HI-450oil = 2520*365 days).

Britain controlled Iraq and several other Middle Eastern countries at this time, so they should have no problem shipping oil in from the Persian Gulf region, why do we have to convoy oil all the way from the U.S. West Coast when it has no basis in history?

I guess since all HI production goes into a common pool it doesn’t really matter WHERE the oil goes as long as it gets turned into HI points. But why put so much HI in India then, was it an oversight and British plane factories were left out in the last minute? Is India short on supply later on when tons of allied units are in theatre and their HI isn’t producing the potential extra supply a fully running industry would create?

Now there are a total of 1165 aircraft factories of all types in the production list. If my memory is correct and I got all the engine numbers for the different plane types right, they are producing a total of 45 engines. 45*18=810 HI spent if all factories produced 1 aircraft a day, 1620 for 2 each, etc. This is a very simplified breakdown since many factories are of different size and can only produce a limited number of aircraft. For example a factory of size 50 can only produce from 1.7 to 2.6 planes a day depending on the random roll, not sure if rounded up or down.

After reviewing my (very simplified) numbers it is probably no problem to create enough HI to run the airplane factories (I count in excess of 5k HI a day without a single shipment once all HI has double stocks of oil on hand), so the real question is whether supply is sufficient in India without regular convoys from the U.S. bringing large stocks of oil to supplement the automatic supply.

I’m not criticizing anything here, I love the game and am engrossed in learning everything I can about its inner workings, I just thought this would be an interesting topic for discussion. Simpler than the Japanese so probably better to cut our teeth on the Allies first.

Jim

P.S. It’s late here so my apologies in advance if I’ve screwed up some numbers.

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 7/6/2004 8:21:43 AM >

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RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/6/2004 6:25:49 PM   
jhdeerslayer


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(in reply to Jim D Burns)
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RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/6/2004 6:48:24 PM   
Xargun

 

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Status: offline 		You have to remember two things concerning British industry in India and their occupation of the Middle East..

1. In the 1940's the Middle East was NOT KNOWN to have the oil that we today know they have. Now they
knew there was some oil there, but nothing like we know today so the oil production in these nations
simply did not exist yet.

2. Most of the oil they produced in the Middle East went home to England to support her industries. As for
India and such, they probably bought oil off the Dutch from the SRA. It was both closer and easier to
access than the Middle East oil.

The allies need to drain every last drop of oil they can out of the SRA before Japan gets it - both to run their own industry and to deny that easy oil to Japan - make Japan wait for oil to be produced... not hey I just took Base XYZ and look what the Allies left me - 12000 units of oil... how nice of them. Everytime Japan captures free oil at a base, it adds life to their economy - if Japan finds 12000 units of oil at 1 base, it is basically one more day their economy can run at FULL steam - producing everything they need to delay Allied victory and a better chance at winning the game.

So while you might think retreating before the Japanese is a good idea to save forces, you also want to deny them the precious resources - mostly oil for as long as you can and ship as much of it back home to Oz or India that you can - even if Japan sinks the TKs carrying it, they don't get it.

Xargun

< Message edited by Xargun -- 7/6/2004 4:50:01 PM >

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
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RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/6/2004 9:19:32 PM   
Black Cat

 

Posts: 615
Joined: 7/4/2002
Status: offline 		Actually the Brits were exporting oil in quantity from the Middle East in about 1916 when the RN moved away from coal and the oil fired battlefleet began to come on line.

It probably remains to be seen in playing through the Campaign Game if enough oil gets to India to produce the hardware/supply in India, or if the Aircraft production/supply for India is off map. I`m still trying to grasp the oil/supply/production part of the Game as the US

(in reply to Xargun)
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RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/6/2004 9:35:44 PM   
Xargun

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Actually the Brits were exporting oil in quantity from the Middle East in about 1916 when the RN moved away from coal and the oil fired battlefleet began to come on line.

It probably remains to be seen in playing through the Campaign Game if enough oil gets to India to produce the hardware/supply in India, or if the Aircraft production/supply for India is off map. I`m still trying to grasp the oil/supply/production part of the Game as the US


They probably were - but most people think of the oil production in the Middle East today and think it happened back then too - but that is simply not true - thats why Germany attacked North Africa - for oil... not the middle east.

I am just making my suggestions and such from what I know (think). I am playing Japan right now in a PBEM and against the allied AI and am concentrating on learning the Japanese side of things right now - a lot more complicated than the allies. But will help if I can.

I would guess its almost impossible to ship oil to India as all the US surplus is going to OZ. But doesn't the brits get free fuel / supplies at one or more of these bases ? It should be enough to hold off the Japs unless they make a major push into Burma - but I don't see any japanese player taking Burma and India without sacrificing a lot of defense in the SRA - making it easier for the US.. The Brits basically fight a holding battle until the Japs stop pressuring them - then they can slowly go on he offensive. At least this is how I see it.

Xargun

(in reply to Black Cat)
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RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/6/2004 9:47:22 PM   
JohnK

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun


They probably were - but most people think of the oil production in the Middle East today and think it happened back then too - but that is simply not true - thats why Germany attacked North Africa - for oil... not the middle east.


Ummm..... of course ALL of it wasn't found (the various southern Persian Gulf fields were largely exploited after the war) but there was quite large production in the Middle East prior to WWII; the Iranian fields and the North Iraq fields are quite old and predate WWII by a lot.

Frankly, I'd be SHOCKED if there was a single drop of oil imported to India from the US in World War II.

< Message edited by JohnK -- 7/6/2004 8:58:08 PM >

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RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/6/2004 9:54:42 PM   
myros

 

Posts: 289
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		Im still a bit confused about this model too ...

eg. I made some AKs and TKs loaded them with resources and oil and sent them down to Derby ... they got there ok and unloaded but when I check Derby the listed resource and oil hasnt changed. Was it shipped away from Derby by rail that quick or is this a bug?

(And yes it was resources and oil and not fuel and supplies ;) )

Myros

(in reply to JohnK)
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RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/6/2004 9:55:49 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
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From: Near Columbus, Ohio
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quote:

ORIGINAL: myros

Im still a bit confused about this model too ...

eg. I made some AKs and TKs loaded them with resources and oil and sent them down to Derby ... they got there ok and unloaded but when I check Derby the listed resource and oil hasnt changed. Was it shipped away from Derby by rail that quick or is this a bug?

(And yes it was resources and oil and not fuel and supplies ;) )

Myros


Did you run a turn or just click unload ? Items do not instantly unload.. Also what size port is Derby ? The smaller the port, the slower loading/unloading is.

Xargun

(in reply to myros)
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RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/6/2004 9:56:59 PM   
Mr.Frag


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quote:

eg. I made some AKs and TKs loaded them with resources and oil and sent them down to Derby ... they got there ok and unloaded but when I check Derby the listed resource and oil hasnt changed. Was it shipped away from Derby by rail that quick or is this a bug?


Guys, you really have to pay attention.

The HI in Oz already has lots of Oil at the start. It will not pull it from Derby until it *needs* it.

Quit using the "Bug" word will ya, or I'm going to re-institute the time honoured tradition of keel hauling!

(in reply to myros)
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RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/7/2004 12:13:22 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: myros

Im still a bit confused about this model too ...

eg. I made some AKs and TKs loaded them with resources and oil and sent them down to Derby ... they got there ok and unloaded but when I check Derby the listed resource and oil hasnt changed. Was it shipped away from Derby by rail that quick or is this a bug?

(And yes it was resources and oil and not fuel and supplies ;) )

Myros


I've noticed the U.S. stockpiles most of the excess oil in San Diego even though the majority of the HI is in L.A. My guess is your oil and stuff got pulled to the last HI factory checked in OZ during production. I am assuming that each factory gets checked in turn and pulls the recourses to them; hence everything ends up In San Diego in the states. Check the total for the entire country before unloading and take into account production additions and losses, my guess is it's there, just got pulled to a HI location. I'm just guessing though.

I do realize there is far more oil in the middle east today than there was during WWII, but it was still one of the largest oil producing regions in the world even then.

The Germans went into Africa to prop up the faltering Italians and to try and stop British shipping through the Suez Canal. Middle East oil fed Britain’s war machine and allowed them to continue to resist. Without it they never would have been able to afford to produce as much war equipment as they did.

Jim

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RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/7/2004 12:20:38 AM   
Bodhi


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From: Japan
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

eg. I made some AKs and TKs loaded them with resources and oil and sent them down to Derby ... they got there ok and unloaded but when I check Derby the listed resource and oil hasnt changed. Was it shipped away from Derby by rail that quick or is this a bug?


Guys, you really have to pay attention.

The HI in Oz already has lots of Oil at the start. It will not pull it from Derby until it *needs* it.

Quit using the "Bug" word will ya, or I'm going to re-institute the time honoured tradition of keel hauling!


So you're saying that it wouldn't have been "pullled" away by the HI in Oz? In that case what happened to it? If it simply disappeared into thin air, wouldn't that be a bug?

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RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/7/2004 12:24:24 AM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

eg. I made some AKs and TKs loaded them with resources and oil and sent them down to Derby ... they got there ok and unloaded but when I check Derby the listed resource and oil hasnt changed. Was it shipped away from Derby by rail that quick or is this a bug?


Guys, you really have to pay attention.

The HI in Oz already has lots of Oil at the start. It will not pull it from Derby until it *needs* it.

Quit using the "Bug" word will ya, or I'm going to re-institute the time honoured tradition of keel hauling!


So you're saying that it wouldn't have been "pullled" away by the HI in Oz? In that case what happened to it? If it simply disappeared into thin air, wouldn't that be a bug?


I agree, sound "fishy" to me. If you indeed unloaded it. And if, as Frag states, it was not needed because Aussie HI had a good bit to start with, where did it go?

(in reply to Bodhi)
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RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/7/2004 4:51:54 AM   
myros

 

Posts: 289
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		LOL Ok Im dumb ;)

I was looking at the figure in the bottom display - mouse over the icon and it says resources - 300 ... but thats what it is producing not what it has stored. I found the proper place to look and its storing the unloaded items no problem. I was wondering why it never went up or down *grin*

One thing I have noticed though is AKs and TKs will randomly stop loading oil and resources and require you to click the 'load oil' toggle again the next turn. I have to have no destination set and 'do not unload' toggled in order to make sure the ship doesnt take off the next turn. Then manualy go through and see which ships have for whatever reason stopped uploading. Checked the base and there is plenty of supply ...any reason this would happen?

re: the "bug" word .... in a perfect world with perfect programers making perfect games there would be no need for the word ...but seeing as I live on earth I guess we're stuck with it ;)

Myros

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 13
RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/7/2004 4:58:30 AM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline 		10/90 rule, I think. If you let your stocks increase, your tankers and cargo transports won't stop and wait to finish loading. At least mine don't.

1. Don't load up on turn one unless there is a pre-existing stock of resources.
2. Don't cram large transport TF's into a resource port one after another. Stagger them to accomodate the production.

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RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/7/2004 5:04:45 AM   
myros

 

Posts: 289
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Status: offline 		Sorry thought I was clear - the base has plenty of resources (ie 50k oil) but the TKs will still randomly stop uploading. Havent figured out why yet.

At first I thought it was because it can only load equal to the base production per day, but that soon proved untrue and once I figured out how to see the stockpile ( lol ) I can see clearly there is tons of supply.

I'll keep playing with it and see if it continues.

Myros

(in reply to von Murrin)
Post #: 15
RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/7/2004 6:06:12 AM   
von Murrin


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From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline 		They stop totally or the loading continues at a trickle?

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RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/7/2004 7:46:20 AM   
jrcar

 

Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Seymour, Australia
Status: offline 		At this time of the war there is NO WAY that oil could travel overland from Derby to anywhere in Oz. Derby was cut off via land for 6-8 months of the year (due to the wet season), and the road infrastructure and lack of trucks would have meant it could only go via ship anyway.

Until very recently (70's?) the main way of supplying northern towns like Darwin, Broome and Derby was via coastal shipping.

Calling many of these roads "tracks" is even overdoing it. Speed of maybe 10-15 MPH, no fuel stops (even today there is only one roadhouse between Broome and Port Headland) and no vehicle repairs basically from Broome to Geralton.

Even today you have to experiance it to understand the vast distances and lack of infrastructure.

Broome, Port Headland, Derby, Wyndham are for all for all intents and purposes islands that can only be supported by sea. Darwin has the one link, and even that was frequently closed for upto 6 months of the year due to the wet season.

Cheers

Rob



quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

eg. I made some AKs and TKs loaded them with resources and oil and sent them down to Derby ... they got there ok and unloaded but when I check Derby the listed resource and oil hasnt changed. Was it shipped away from Derby by rail that quick or is this a bug?


Guys, you really have to pay attention.

The HI in Oz already has lots of Oil at the start. It will not pull it from Derby until it *needs* it.

Quit using the "Bug" word will ya, or I'm going to re-institute the time honoured tradition of keel hauling!

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 17
RE: Rambling thoughts on Production - 7/7/2004 10:32:21 AM   
goodwood


Posts: 130
Joined: 8/2/2003
From: Pakenham OZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jrcar

At this time of the war there is NO WAY that oil could travel overland from Derby to anywhere in Oz. Derby was cut off via land for 6-8 months of the year (due to the wet season), and the road infrastructure and lack of trucks would have meant it could only go via ship anyway.

Until very recently (70's?) the main way of supplying northern towns like Darwin, Broome and Derby was via coastal shipping.

Calling many of these roads "tracks" is even overdoing it. Speed of maybe 10-15 MPH, no fuel stops (even today there is only one roadhouse between Broome and Port Headland) and no vehicle repairs basically from Broome to Geralton.

Even today you have to experiance it to understand the vast distances and lack of infrastructure.

Broome, Port Headland, Derby, Wyndham are for all for all intents and purposes islands that can only be supported by sea. Darwin has the one link, and even that was frequently closed for upto 6 months of the year due to the wet season.

Cheers

Rob

Hey Rob your not gunna be too popular with the WA Govt Tourism with those negative comments

(in reply to jrcar)
Post #: 18
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