Mortar crews are WEAK! ?

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Mortar crews are WEAK! ? - 1/10/2002 8:37:00 PM

campekenobi

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From: Maryland
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I've played a real-time strategy game called "Close Combat," and in that game mortar bombardments not only can go across an entire MAP, but they are rather deadly. Am I doing something wrong in World at War, because the mortar crews only seem to be able to target their VIEW, which is usually only 1 to 7 hexes or so and when they fire, the percent chance is VERY low.???? HELP.

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- 1/10/2002 8:56:00 PM

Alexandra

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Mortar's can only direct fire at what they can see, the same as any unit. However, most units can use the artillery button to call down indirect fire anywhere on the map. If the spotter can see the hex - more so if he is a Forward Observer - the fire is more accurate than if you just blind fire at terrain, or suspected enemy locations. Mortars are best used for suppression of infantry targets. Alex

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- 1/10/2002 8:57:00 PM

Lars Remmen

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From: Copenhagen, Denmark
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quote:

Originally posted by Sniper-for-hire:
I've played a real-time strategy game called "Close Combat," and in that game mortar bombardments not only can go across an entire MAP, but they are rather deadly. Am I doing something wrong in World at War, because the mortar crews only seem to be able to target their VIEW, which is usually only 1 to 7 hexes or so and when they fire, the percent chance is VERY low.???? HELP.

Hi, You need to use another unit, a FO for instance, to assign the mortar a target hex. To do that click on the FO, press 'B', select the target hex and finally choose the units to bombard the hex. Two things: First, units may be greyed out. That means they cannot fire - they may be out of contact, retreating or routed. Second, you will notice some numbers to the right of the units in the bombardment screen. That is the delay (the time you have to wait) before the shells start falling on the target. A delay of 0.1 means the shells will arrive when you choose to end your turn. 0.3 means that the shells will start falling after the AI's turn. 1.0 that the shells will arrive after your next turn and so forth. Regards, Lars

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- 1/10/2002 9:02:00 PM

campekenobi

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quote:

Originally posted by Lars Remmen:
Hi, You need to use another unit, a FO for instance, to assign the mortar a target hex. To do that click on the FO, press 'B', select the target hex and finally choose the units to bombard the hex. Two things: First, units may be greyed out. That means they cannot fire - they may be out of contact, retreating or routed. Second, you will notice some numbers to the right of the units in the bombardment screen. That is the delay (the time you have to wait) before the shells start falling on the target. A delay of 0.1 means the shells will arrive when you choose to end your turn. 0.3 means that the shells will start falling after the AI's turn. 1.0 that the shells will arrive after your next turn and so forth. Regards, Lars

Hey, thanks a LOT! (what does FO stand for, sorry , I'm an idiot). and is this 'FO' team the ONLY team that can make this call? Thanks again.

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- 1/10/2002 9:09:00 PM

WW2'er

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From: East Dundee, IL, USA
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quote:

Originally posted by Sniper-for-hire:
Hey, thanks a LOT! (what does FO stand for, sorry , I'm an idiot). and is this 'FO' team the ONLY team that can make this call? Thanks again.

FO stands for Forward Observer. No, he is not the only one who can make that call. Almost any unit can, but the forward observer is made to do just that. They have the best "Artillery Rating". WW2'er

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- 1/10/2002 9:54:00 PM

Cromort

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hello, having played all close combats (like many of you i guess

) you know that 50mm mortars are really not that deadly. 80mm are bit more powerfull , but inflicted casalties are quite close between these two mortars (+-5men a game).
Well in SPwaw, i'm experiencing quite the same.
Casualties from 50mm are about 3-4 men max (with all ammo fired), and from 80mm i get easily 15 killed ruskovs.

So, 80mm is not that ineffective.
And pls remind that these mortars are better to suppress than kill the enemy
"Secret operations are essential in war; upon them the army relies to make its every move." Sun Tzu [ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Cromort ]

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- 1/10/2002 10:37:00 PM

challenge

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Yes, mortors are best used for suppressing enemy infantry (or your own if they're bad shots

) I have ended up developing a personal "tactical doctrine" for mortors. the 81mm and up are great for those longer range targets. They also seem to get a nice kill rate (I suppose that the "killed" are really just dazed, confused and out of the fight, but it works for me.) Smaller mortors, like the 50mm hanging out with the infantry platoons are excellent point defense weapons, or as the little extra touch for the careful plt leader advancing his units. Can field howitzers fire indirect? When I put them on a hill they do a really nice job on the approaching infantry, but they don't show up on the artillery screen when calling indirect fire. All my mortors, include the SPs on the halftracks are there, but I would have thought the 75 mm howitzer would as well. [ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Challenge ]

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- 1/11/2002 12:18:00 AM

Lars Remmen

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Hi, Onboard field howitzers should be able to fire indirect. Almost any artillery unit can. The German 75mm and 150mm inf guns being the only ones I can remember that can not. Regards, Lars

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- 1/11/2002 3:25:00 AM

Bradock78436

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They are rather deadly. GE Spec ops tried to infiltrate behind my lines. They got on the victory location and I called in nearly everything i had in the department of artillery. I think a few survivors dispearsed, but the squad was annhilated.

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- 1/11/2002 4:30:00 AM

Bj�rnR

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It’s extremely important for the killing effect of any fire, and not the least artillery, if you can caught the enemy moving in the open, or in por defensive terain. That’s why an artillery attack in the right moment can brake off an attack. If the enemy is in a good defensive position the effect is suppression.

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- 1/11/2002 6:08:00 AM

skukko

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Not every howitzer -type is available for indirect fire. Some of them are simply used against spotted enemy. Some don't have capability IE radios/taps/wires to shoot upon request. Test them before buying them to battle of a lifetime

mosh

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- 1/11/2002 7:20:00 AM

Mikimoto

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If you move or fire in "direct fire" mode your arty or mortars, they will not show/appear in the Arty Screen during that turn, or will be unable to fire, because those actions are incompatible with indirect fire... well, I mean if you make something, then you can't fire indirect barrages: Pure logic, and I like it. Thats my bad english another time...

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- 1/11/2002 11:49:00 AM

bigtroutz

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it is said that mortars and artillery inflicted more casualties in WWII than other offensive weapon types. This mirrors my observations with my type of game-play in SPWAW. Here is how i use mortars & artillery: < 50mm almost useless except in close support infantry suppression 60mm (btw note the price diff between jeep sp 60mm and a "normal" 60mm squad in ver 7) used for suppression of adjacent or 2 hex from friendlies 81mm used for suppression/kill 2 hexes or more from friendlies, suppresses tanks and defensive fortification - used as my core force bread n butter arty with a ratio of 1:2:1 with 60mm:81mm:larger stuff 105mm/25pdr/75mm How used for general indirect barrages, counter-battery fire against "smoke-observed" arty
you will see a few kills also 120mm,155mm, 5", 8", battleship & rockets: used for general indirect barrages against next turns' offensive thrust or against suspected/known enemy advance corridors. this stuff inflicts heavy casualties and routes units - turn on SLOW artillery and pay attention to the spots where kills occur (then reapply as needed - the enemy will NOT be taking any aspirin and calling you in the morning). forward observers are CRITICAL to artillery, reducing time to wait for barrages to arrive from as long as 1.5 (basically 2 turns) to .1 or .2 (before the next turns' enemy defensive fire) AND as has been mentioned, makes spotted fire more effective. What has not been mentioned is the use of FO's to reduce the "not in contact" artillery that reduces your firepower. i will buy a FO and place arty in a ring around it to fix this. so buy 1 FO for each 6 arty units and FOs / FO jeeps to scope out the artillery possibilities. another important general rule to note is that larger MM = fewer rounds fired, with the exception of offboard arty fires ALOT more rounds than onboard, and rockets are just scary. 8 offboard rocket units can target about 1/4 of a small map, which is just awesome. i have played medium defensive battles against hordes of japanese infantry where less than a dozen or so units made it thru the constant arty barrages to attack my line, and i had more casualties from japanese artillery. enjoy

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- 1/11/2002 9:26:00 PM

Alexandra

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Also, on a side note, remember that the game's FOs are much much much much better than the real world counterpart units that the real armies had. Alex

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Post #: 14

- 1/11/2002 9:32:00 PM

campekenobi

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I just want to thank bigtroutz for that very in-depth description & views on artillery. My brother-in-law was in the army & supported the fact that artillery is so important in real life, yet so overlooked when it comes to video games. Anyway, I appreciate everybodys comments - thanks!

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Post #: 15

- 1/11/2002 10:17:00 PM

Larry Holt

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quote:

Originally posted by Lars Remmen:
Hi, Onboard field howitzers should be able to fire indirect. Almost any artillery unit can. The German 75mm and 150mm inf guns being the only ones I can remember that can not.

Ah but as you say the 75 & 105 are GUNS and meant for direct fire not howitzers that have sights and elevation means for indirect fire.

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- 1/12/2002 2:18:00 AM

V-man

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quote:

Originally posted by Alexandra:
Also, on a side note, remember that the game's FOs are much much much much better than the real world counterpart units that the real armies had. Alex

I beg to differ. A WW II FO could call fire for EVERY battery he was linked to. the C&C system in SPWaW doesn't represent that well. Further, US FOs could and frequently did call for fire from arty units that were nearby but not part of their normal fire plan when they needed to.
Usually, a given battery of guns would have a single FO team assigned, who would go forward with the troops. Such a team would be able to call fire for the whole battery. In SPWaW, I can't do that wihtout "resting" my FOs for several turns. Example, I have in my current solatiare game, a battery of M-7 Priest 105 howitzers attached directly to an FO team. This team, stationary, cannot, relaibly, every turn, call fire from all four guns in the battery. They should be able to do so, but cannot. They need too many commands. This is NOT realistic at all. V-man

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- 1/12/2002 3:04:00 AM

Lars Remmen

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quote:

Originally posted by Larry Holt:
Ah but as you say the 75 & 105 are GUNS and meant for direct fire not howitzers that have sights and elevation means for indirect fire.

Eh...?

Regards, Lars

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- 1/12/2002 5:15:00 AM

V-man

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quote:

Originally posted by Lars Remmen:
Eh...? Regards, Lars

Infantry guns were used in the direct firle role exclusively. Sort of a poor man's Assault gun. The differences between the two (infantry guns and assault guns) is the tracked chassis of the assault gun. Employment was the same.
Now, to get further confusing, in the REGULAR artillery, there were *Field* guns. When discussing field guns, infantry guns, or AT guns, it is important to specify which type. you see, all *guns* operate much the same, whereas *Howitzers* operate differently.
A gun is characterised by a high muzzle velocity and reasonably flat trajectory. This permits VERY long range, accurate fire. Cannon on tanks are also guns. Unfortunately, since guns have a very flat trajectory, they cannot normally bring fire on targets that ae, say, behind a hill. Enter the Howitzer.
Howitzers use a higher angle of fire, at long range they are often firing shells as high into the air as they are downrange (a shoot that sends a shell 10,000 yards downrange will often also send that shell 10,000 yards into the air, in a parabolic arc). Because of this, howitzers can *also* accomplish the most desired kind of barrage - the ToT, or Time on Target.
A ToT is where every shell from a firing battery impacts in a short, 1-5 second, period of time. This maximises the suppression and damage on the target. Essentially, in a firing battery, (we'll use US artillery for this example) each piece is given the target point and so much time to make the individual settings for the piece. Since the howitzers are not all on the same point on the earth, each one must caculate it's own firing beraing, barrel angle, and charge. Most Howitzers use bags of propellant so that they can vary the charge when firing at different ranges. When firing, each howitzer will fire three rounds in rapid succession, so if there are 9 pieces in the battery, 27 shells hit the beaten zone. ALL in 1-5 seconds of each other.
Just as nearly all howitzers use propellant bags, most guns use fixed charges where the shell is attached to a brass casing full of propellant, much like an immense rifle bullet. this is typically true for AT Guns, Infantry Guns, and Field Guns.
Does that help clear up the misunderstanding? V-man

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- 1/12/2002 5:52:00 AM

Jacc

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Every unit soptting for artillery fire on known target (seen enemy) causes a lot more damage than artillery fire on unknown target. FOs are best, when used at the front line: artillery barrage on a seen enemy line causes quite more havoc than "no LOS"-fire. Use the FOs effectively: buy a large number of them, then use them to direct your indirect fire. Infantry guns were used and meant for direct fire - mostly for suppressing infantry or causing single casualties for the enemy. They were not used in defensive roles OTHERS AS SUPPRESSING ENEMY INFANTRY BEFORE ARTILLERY BARRAGE before attack. However, they can be lethal tools in defensive missions - use one round of 150mm sIGG in an enemy infatry unit advancing towards your position. FOs do not play a role in this specifical mission. FOs and recon units are crucial in attack missions, so they must be needed carefully. Generally, FO units must be placed so that they can direct fire (with LOS) into multiple targets.

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- 1/12/2002 8:52:00 AM

richmonder

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V-man, way to go on that! I never knew about the differences in propellants.. That was a very cool disertation. Have you any artillery background?

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- 1/12/2002 11:25:00 AM

V-man

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quote:

Originally posted by richmonder:
V-man, way to go on that! I never knew about the differences in propellants.. That was a very cool disertation. Have you any artillery background?

Nope, Mech Infantry, US Army, 1986-88. But I subscribe to Kirk's Three Laws, so I've picked up the arty stuff along the way. Glad it was helpful. V-man

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- 1/12/2002 2:00:00 PM

Lars Remmen

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quote:

Originally posted by Velovich:
Does that help clear up the misunderstanding? V-man

I know about the differences you describe. A very good explanation by the way! I was just (still am I think) confused about what the post meant. Possibly I am daft - I don't know... Regards, Lars

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