Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: ycwang

Chiang Kai-Shek (BTW, misspelled in the game, not "Chek") has ratings of leadership 16 & inspiration 13. This is totally way out of line. Even though he may not be liked by many westerners, Chiang did win the civil war in China prior to WW2, which made him from a warlord to a national leader. He also led China to fight Japan since 1937 without the intervention of the U.S. until Pearl Harbor. His strategy to deal with the Japanese, mainly to "trade space for time," had also been proved a successful one. He might not be liked by the Communists, but he inspired many Chinese people to fight Japan during WW2. Chiang may not be the smartest general, but whoever gave him such low ratings were obviously biased.

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Um, everything you said is besides the point and rude. No matter what Chiang's character was, that has no effect on his abilities.

He was certainly no great general but i would probably rate him higher than Percival or even Wavell.

Mike

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ORIGINAL: ycwang

Because Chiang was such a controversial person in the Chinese history, no wonder some people would not want to discuss this topic with a rational manner.

My point is: even though he was not a great general, he was still not THAT bad at the operational level. He was graduated from, or at least stuided in, a Japanese military school. He beat all the warlords and won the civil war in China prior to WW2. Even though the Communists didn't like him, the KMT military and a major portion of Chinese people were still inspired by him to fight the Japanese "during" the WW2. The fact that he was defeated by the Communists after WW2 had nothing to do with the ratings in this game because his loss was not due to bad military strategies. So at the operational level, he should not be ranked as the worst geneal of all in the game. I repeat, whoever gave him such ratings is obviously biased.

BTW, where do the ratings of a leader, either in the army, navy or air force, come from? I really wonder how the WitP people made their decisions about most of the less known military leaders in this game.

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ORIGINAL: timtom

Knowing virtually nothing about the war in China won't stop me from commenting: It seems to me that the KMT strategy was spot on. Japan is doomed no matter what the Chinese do. No point in undermining you own post-war position just to speed up the inevitable defeat of Japan. Let the Amricans fight the Japanese, sucker them for as much material as material as possible, and take the long view of things.

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ORIGINAL: MengCiao

If the KMT strategy was spot on, it is odd that they were driven out of China within 4 years of the end of the war. It seems more reasonable to see them as short-sighted opportunists led by a perfectly professional stuffed shirt whose lucrative business it was to annoy his allies and stay out of the way of his enemies.

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Well, Chiang was not driven out of China, he and the KMT government retreated to Chungking, which is still part of the Chinese territory. That he won the civil war prior to WW2 was a proof that he could fight at the operational level. There is no way that his ratings are so low, compared to other generals.

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ORIGINAL: kaleun

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Well, Chiang was not driven out of China, he and the KMT government retreated to Chungking, which is still part of the Chinese territory. That he won the civil war prior to WW2 was a proof that he could fight at the operational level. There is no way that his ratings are so low, compared to other generals.

He did predict that "The japanese were an infection that would heal, the Communists are a cancer" He saw the Communists as the real threat, and IMHO he was right.
Now his ratings should reflect his activities during the war, so they are probably right on.

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Even though he may not be liked by many westerners

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I'm confused by that. Didn't he fight for a democratic china against communism? Why wouldn't westerners like him?

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ORIGINAL: kaleun

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I'm confused by that. Didn't he fight for a democratic china against communism? Why wouldn't westerners like him?

The communists (Stalin, Mao) were the west's allies in this war!

"I am not a communist, but if Hitler invaded Hell, I would make a good representation for the Devil in the House of Commons" Winston Churchill.

PS: Mao's China was and is not democratic. Chang's was not, but is now.

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And Taiwan is only a little more democratic than China.

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ORIGINAL: freeboy

comment really was directed at ycwang... so wheres my turn already?

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ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

And Taiwan is only a little more democratic than China.

Mike

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ORIGINAL: pyaeen

Although I agree with you about the ability of CKS, other guys respond negatively I think just bcs they don't know much about Chinese history in 30-50, or may be they accept other point of view of WW2 like Buma campaign.
But I know this really off topic too.
1.Law Professor means nothing here for gorgnard
2.Taiwan has trun democracy now? What a good president election show we had seen.
4. It seems you come from Taiwan and should learn Sun Yat-Sen's theories when you were as boy in Taiwan. But do you have deep research on that?

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ORIGINAL: Bandkanon

I apologize for my earleir rudeness. I was, however, very surprised trying to make the point for higher numbers for Chiang. I don't understand why you think Chiang won the civil in China prior to the invasion of the Japanese. It was Chiang's arrogance in the first place when he kicked the Communits out of the KMT during the Northern Invasion of 1925 in Shanghai. For the next decade Chiang chased the CCP all over China but was never fully able to eradicate them. It was only through a German advisor and his blockhouse strategy of containment then eradication, which itself was very much like how the Ching's Han banners destroyed the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom almost a century earlier. Just because Chiang went to a Japanese military school does not mean he is even capable of military operations. Chiang was also the commandant of Whampoa Military Academy, and from the stories of my grandfather, who was a graduate of the 17th Class, Chiang wasn't all that great of a military man. His strategy of staying put is sound but immoral in my opinion. But morality oftentimes do not matter in war. He could have fought harder against the Japanese, especially in 1931 in Shanghai, and the subsequent invasion in 1937. KMT troops were fighting hard on and providing much resistance to the IJA in Shanghai and needed supplies and reinforcements. Chiang misjudged and decided to pull back thereby forfeiting the defense. The retreat thus turned into a rout. The KMT troops who fought the IJA were mediocre and definitely not Chiang's best, but they put up enough resistance to frustrate the IJA enough to perpetrate one of the worst massacres in human history at Nanjing. If only Chiang was willing to inspire his troops to fight, but he didn't.

Chiang only became the leader of China because he was able to politically herd the warlords into place, either through the threat of force or by just buying them into the KMT, and it was often the latter tactic he used. He was never a good planner of military operations and when he did it always sucked. Another example of his ineptitude was the Battle of BeiHai in northern China in 1948. The KMT had the best the US could offer: artillery, tanks, and planes. But what did they do? They just sat on their asses and waited for the CCP to encircle them and build layers and layers of trenches until the armor was completely useless. The result: the complete collapse of the KMT in northern China and then the retreat back to Taiwan. What I just said is true. My grandfather was there fighting for the KMT as a LT. general. He escaped the encirclement only because he was freed by his captors, who were also Whampoa graduates after he turned down to offer to turn coat. But this battle just shows the ineptitude of Chiang as the leader since he is the one who has to take responsibility for his command decisions.


By the way, why does Taiwan follow the Japanese way of teaching law to 4 year undergrads? How come there aren't any law schools like the states? I interned with Lee and Li for a while and I am sorry to say I was not very impressed wth the thinking of undergrad law students in Taiwan. It seems that they are taught law but never the reasons as to why the laws exist in the first place.