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A very first impression - time will tell - 10/4/2004 6:39:33 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline 		With Overlord well and truly underway I’m able to now share a few impressions with those still sitting on the fence. Hopefully something a tad coherent!

Compared to Korsun Pocket, BiN is a friendly beast. Familiar in setting, force pool and massively, a revamped user interface.

Flak units now serve a purpose (if possibly undocumented with KP) in reducing the impact of air interdiction based on a range of effect. Police units likewise, interact with interdiction caused by the new partisan presence. Mines and strong points may be placed by the gamer during play as yet, variations of the interdiction effect and a supply system (explained by some fairly loosely written rules) logically distributes bullets and fuel not only from edge hex supply dumps but from inland supply sources that may pop-up and become active/or lost during play. Be on the lookout for a new supply unit movement-type called “Supply”! A movement rate used specifically by some supply units to trace supply from themselves to a supply source – the strength of this “trace” impacting their ability to “burst” supply forth to its surrounding hexes (supply dumps aka supply points may also “burst” beans and bullets on their own).

The Overlord scenario as the Allies begins with its 3 airborne divisions already landed on map. Where these units end up (together with their future supply dumps) will change each time you start the scenario from scratch. (Note: Steve Ford in his 76 turn scenario permits the Allied Player to determine its desired drop zones before turn 1 and watch these units scatter to ground). Whilst the official Overlord scenario obviously wishes players to use historical landing and drop zones, it would have been nice to allow players to witness the landing in progress rather than finding their airborne units already on the map and set for play. This is where the first anomaly in game play personally arises. Whilst airborne divisions may indeed loose and entire regiment on landing (lost from the game forever even before the action starts that is – very tough!), more usually units will begin play with a step loss. This does not sit perfectly well with the expectation for scatter, confusion and disunity that the morning of June 6th was legendary for in the airborne realm. To exacerbate this further, all airborne divisions begin the game with full Divisional Integrity intact allowing the advantage of their Integrity combat modifiers. Divisional Integrity in BiN has become a powerful force multiplier – and ascertaining exactly whether it applies to a force is now a matter of simplicity owing to some extremely useful on-map clues.

A turn in BiN represents 1 day of actual time (and no where in the user manual is the specified). Turn 1 therefore proceeds with the Allied Day 1 landing waves at the top of the map, embarked and at sea awaiting orders to come ashore. Click on a unit or stack and a sea-lane will highlight, terminating in a series of landing hexes pertaining to its assigned beach. Yet, the urge to bring these units in immediately is tempered by the reality that every landing hex contains a German strong point. This is where the Navy comes in. Dozens of counters representing individually named warships of various designations (battleship, destroyer etc) wait off the Normandy coast. They too populate sea-lanes and may be shifted along them as the player decides for targeting purposes. On turn 1 the role of the Navy is to soften those beaches up. This is enabled through the ability of each vessel to combat strong points and a dice within their unit information boxes tells of the probability of such success. So its click and wait. A booming sound will emanate as each fires and a crash will announce the elimination of an enemy step (for those unfamiliar with the system, units comprise “steps” – representing battalions or platoons etc). There is a slight frustration here as the initial boom lasts just a second or two too long and there are dozen of vessels to fire when awaiting the crucial “crash” telling of success. Management of the Navy it soon becomes clear, is of the utmost importance, for the success of the infant campaign relies upon its productivity.

Once you slowly see your beach hexes opening up, the urge to land the infantry and armor grows until the impatience overwhelms! Sending the units and stacks towards the shore and onto a beach reveals a great surprise: A dice or series of dice may suddenly appear in a unit’s information box. This tells of the danger of combat attrition in the current beach hex. A range indicator nearby tells that greater the number of enemy steps in the vicinity, the more times it will need to roll for possible step destruction (up to a maximum of one dice per step comprising the landing unit – the extent of the enemy’s threat also determining the numeral to be rolled – a five will suggest a 33% chance of that unit losing 1 step). The moral here is easy: Clear as many enemy steps as you can before landing – look inland for forts too, for so long as he enemy sits within attrition range, the threat of losses will hang around).

Yet, even amidst all this excitement something raises its head. Exactly how wide is a hex in BiN? The user manual states 4km across. Yet, on DDay (Turn 1) not only can you bring an entire stack containing an entire division ashore in one beach hex but given the right situation, you can move it inland and bring yet another into its exact spot. Given that a turn equates to a day, this possibility of landing efficiency does contain some plausibility. However, it really is stretching the imagination to believe. A poorly managed landing can alternately see units embarked off shore with no place to end their day either. DDay on my PC yesterday saw Utah cleared and the 4th Infantry a hex inland, with full landings on Omaha, Juno, Gold and Sword – inroads made at all too. In other words, DDay will either be a very bloody time for your silicone forces or a cakewalk depending on how you manage the affair.

Using the advice of Gregor Whiley in setting the AI to “Computer –” pending a patch (see below). I’m wondering whether the AI is up to its tactical best? The 6th Airborne managed on Turn 1 to blow the bridge north of Caen from its west bank and the 12th SS reaction force by Turn 4 hasn’t seemed to fathom that its approach to the beaches is now south of Caen and rather has been sitting on the east bank (without firing) for 3 turns now. The Omaha area is perfectly clear. Every German unit ran away from its environs on Turn 1! And Bayeaux sits in the British grasp with the 352nd Wehrmacht failing to occupy it in any way. Utah is forming a pocket, the fight for Carentan will be a long and bloody affair depending on what the German AI will throw from the west and I expect a very silent 6th FJ and possibly the 1st SS to make an appearance, though signs of both have been nil for now.

Is “Computer – ”the way to play pending a patch to fix the AI double replacement bug?

All in all BiN is proving a very comfortable and manageable operational sim. It looks like DDay, it looks like Normandy but something just doesn’t feel right in this Great Crusade. Maybe a bit more atmosphere in between turns? Maybe a bit more confusion in unit cohesion? The board game Breakout Normandy saw units frozen in place due to operational disruption, bridges and losses. So the regimental level does work. Maybe it’s for the revamped BiN supply system to now start rearing its ugly logistical head as the game progresses to start feeling the frustrations of fighting the bocage? Time will tell. A nice game, some nice rules innovations but yet to prove “revolutionary”.

Adam.
Post #: 1
Signs from the AI - 10/5/2004 3:10:19 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline 		Play continues and the AI is showing conflicting signs. Either something is awry with the "Computer -" setting as mentioned above or something's just not right.

Around Utah, the AI has reinforced the southern Carentan sector and is trying to bring forces into the Utah pocket from the west. Its one moment of genius thus far has been to set its air interdiction on this western peninsula flank to prevent a highly possible attempt on my part to wheel wide and to the left in an effort to hinder its build-up.

But this moment of overt genius is suddenly and harshly cast aside.

With the 12th SS still on the unbridged right bank of Caen, unmoved and non-attacking, with Lehr now in the western suburbs of Caen and the 21st Panzer holding Caen itself - no unit of these forces attacking either, the AI tries to create a scant, rag-tag front outside the now fallen Bayeaux. You will recall, it gave up Bayeaux without even the briefest fight. Just left it unoccupied.

In doing so 2 enemy supply units are revealed. Why the AI brings these units into spotting range, I have no idea? Then it totally befuddles me. Southwest of Bayeaux and to the south of the now wide open Omaha sector (the US is spilling out of the entire "island" west and east), the AI leaves one of these supply units in the open, alone with nothing even adjacent!

My US recon battalion (the 35th IIRC) can't believe its luck! Driving 16-20km due south from its unopposed Omaha zone, it moves adjacent to the stranded supply truck, rolls D1 and no more supply unit - most certainly injuring the AI's entire central "ghost" front.

Ladies and gents, in this performance I really do not see any improvement over Korsun Pocket. You never leave a supply unit undefended! Saves are available if officially sought. But this theatre really was a let down.

Decisive Battles/BiN frustratingly offers the much desired "just one more turn feel". It's great when a PC game can do that. But I'm now left with the sense "for what? Will it get any better?"

Could this performance just be due to the recommended "Computer -" setting?

Adam.

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 2
RE: Signs from the AI - 10/5/2004 4:09:12 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		The computer is a poor player.

I gave up playing against the computer in any game whatsoever in 1999.

The only reason to play against the computer is to test somthing. And what you learn can be used against a human.
-

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Post #: 3
RE: Signs from the AI - 10/5/2004 5:06:56 AM   
TheHellPatrol


Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		I think we need to wait out the patch and see what the situation is then, computer- should not have any bearing on strategy though. I enjoyed reading your post btw...good job Adam

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Post #: 4
RE: Signs from the AI - 10/5/2004 2:25:13 PM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
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quote:

Driving 16-20km due south from its unopposed Omaha zone, it moves adjacent to the stranded supply truck


Do you really mean that your recon unit moved 8-10 hexes to get the supply truck? You realize the scale is 2/km max per hex, right? Or do you mean 4-5 hexes?

BTW, the AI will do just what you did w/ its aufklarung units, but they'll be destroyed by you most likely. Did your recon unit manage to survive? Or did the AI attack it at all?

I have not seen too many AI supply units left in the open routinely, although I've seen it happen before. I don't consider this a "major" issue w/ the AI. Its own penchant to infilatrate w/ its own recon units is more questionable, but I can see why it's doing it...

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Post #: 5
RE: Signs from the AI - 10/6/2004 2:34:23 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

The only reason to play against the computer is to test somthing. And what you learn can be used against a human.


That may be true for you Joe, but, everyone doesn't have the same amount of time to spare for playing against a human. And PBEM doesn't appeal to everyone as well. And computers games were made to have challenging computer opponents from the very beginning. It's the reason I and most likely many more got into computer gaming in the first place. Time is a major factor and a decent computer opponent wasn't too much to ask for.

When I buy a computer game the first thing I want to know about is the challenge level of the computer AI, not whether it is "multiplayer or PBEM" or not, so we ALL have different varieties of how we enjoy playing a computer game. So to say the "only" reason to play against the computer ai is to "test something" is completely and totally wrong as far as the "only" reason. It is "your" reason, but, certainly not the majorities reason. ;)

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 6
RE: Signs from the AI - 10/6/2004 3:11:04 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

quote:

Driving 16-20km due south from its unopposed Omaha zone, it moves adjacent to the stranded supply truck


Do you really mean that your recon unit moved 8-10 hexes to get the supply truck? You realize the scale is 2/km max per hex, right? Or do you mean 4-5 hexes?


The later. Until SSG officially tells me that a hex is not as the rulebook says (4km) I'm going to put my faith in that.

(I really don't want to know that a hex is really 2km wide and the rulebook is totally wrong for I cannot believe that the Allies could bring 2 complete divisions ashore in a single 2km hex on DDay itself, as is currently the ability in the game).

Oh the US recon unit has survived. It is being reinforced by 3 UK divisions west of Bayeaux and four US divisions pouring out of the Omaha sector. The German AI has yet to fire a single shot.

Adam.

(in reply to Capitaine)
Post #: 7
RE: Signs from the AI - 10/6/2004 3:34:33 AM   
Black Cat

 

Posts: 615
Joined: 7/4/2002
Status: offline 		What turn are you at, and are you playing the default Scenario or JSS`s 76 turn Campaign Game ?

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Post #: 8
RE: Signs from the AI - 10/6/2004 4:25:48 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

What turn are you at, and are you playing the default Scenario or JSS`s 76 turn Campaign Game ?


Not much play last night but I'm just wrapping up T4 in the original Overlord scenario. It was the fact that the AI made its error so early in the game that worries me.

Here's a couple of interesting points that may explain my successes so far:

1. The 6th AB landed close to Caen so that on T1 it was able to cross the west bank of the Caen river and blow the northern most bridge denying that avenue to German reinforcements from the east. This may explain why the 12th SS is now sitting there doing nothing - is the AI just confused?

2. Two other battalions of the 6th AB were able to occupy the bridge directly north of Caen but unable to blow due to the presence of a unit of the 21st Panzer in Caen itself. Yet there they now sit both AB hexes reinforced by the Commandos on T2. Lehr, 21stPz and HJ are just looking at them, doing nothing. There is no way that that the AB can now be surrounded or even approached from the west due to the presence of plentiful Allied divs. I fully expect to cut Caen off next turn via a multi-div hook from the southwest. We'll just cut those panzer divs off at the tail and take them completely out of the game by tying them up.

3. Clearing the strongpoints and fort in front of Omaha allowed a landing of both US Day 1 divs with barely a battalion lost across the board. This then led to every enemy unit fleeing the zone on its T1.

4. All Allied supply units managed to come ashore unscathed.

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 9
RE: Signs from the AI - 10/6/2004 5:17:32 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		While you guys are telling us what the AI is not doing (which is sad it's not doing anything) can you also tell us what you would have done with the AI units if you were controlling them with the situaltions they were in? ;)

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 10
RE: Signs from the AI - 10/6/2004 6:10:03 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

...can you also tell us what you would have done with the AI units if you were controlling them with the situaltions they were in? ;)


Cool. I haven't peeked at the AI's forces btw so I can estimate what I would have done with the forces it has shown me.

1. 12th SS - The AI bought it in from the east. I'd have probed the bridges around Caen and if found them blown or occupied, have immediately swung south to enter the area from the southwest. My target would be to find the gap between the British and the Amercians or any gap between the various British beaches so to slowly roll up the flanks and force the Allies to better defend its rear. I'd have sent Lehr as backup in this mission.

2. At the Omaha zone, the terrain is one of marsh and rivers - almost like an island. In the board game "Breakout Normandy", nothing can get accomplished there without bridges. Therefore I'd have ordered the defenders in the zone to hold as many bridges as possible, blow them if able in order to allow possibly the 1st SS and maybe the FJ to come into play bottling up any further Allied drive south.

3. The AI is bottling up the Carentan area well. The German Air Landing Div and some other assorted inf outfits have occupied Carentan and are holding up an Allied breakout south. The key will be to monitor the progress of the US 2nd Armored which the scenario fantasticaly lets the Allied player chose whether to land at Omaha or Utah. I felt it was better to employ it at Utah to prevent a collaspe of the Utah pocket/relive the 101st AB.

That's basically it. The Allied side in the first few turns has many wide open spaces in the British/Omaha sector and the AI holding the east bank of the Caen rivers with the 12th SS is wasting some magnificent shock punch. Roll the panzers west, look for vulnerable Allied support units and make the Allied commander think twice as to where to mass his line. That's what I'd be doing in hindsight seeing how my game is currently progressing. The action is at the beaches, that's where the schwerepunkt should be. If you imagine the entire Caen front as a west-east crescent, that's the type of line the Allies have already managed to build around the Caen pocket in just 4 turns.

One wonders whether its now better to send the entire US Omaha front to the support of the Brits too rather than relieving Utah - shorter supply lines - kill off the bulk of the German presence including reinforcements outside the bocage and then home for Xmas? Can we afford to risk Utah if it means the end of the 1st SS PzK early?

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 11
RE: Signs from the AI - 10/6/2004 7:09:09 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

everyone doesn't have the same amount of time to spare for playing against a human.




The amount of time to play any turn is the same whether you play against the AI or a human. I you don’t wish to make a long term “commitment” I am happy to play a short scenario PBEM



quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

And computers games were made to have challenging computer opponents from the very beginning. It's the reason most likely many more and I got into computer gaming in the first place.



Yes I fall into that category too. I found my first computer wargames very challenging and there are some scenarios, played from one side, where I can never win. The same with KP and BIN so long as you choose the correct side and scenario.

But I find winning against the AI not satisfying. The first time I felt this was in a chess game against the AI. The settings were mildly difficult and I made a reasonably good move and the AI stuffed up – and I had the initiative for the rest of the game. Nice but not satisfying.

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Post #: 12
RE: Signs from the AI - 10/6/2004 10:08:50 AM   
PresbyterJohn

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

The only reason to play against the computer is to test somthing. And what you learn can be used against a human.


That may be true for you Joe, but, everyone doesn't have the same amount of time to spare for playing against a human. And PBEM doesn't appeal to everyone as well. And computers games were made to have challenging computer opponents from the very beginning. It's the reason I and most likely many more got into computer gaming in the first place. Time is a major factor and a decent computer opponent wasn't too much to ask for.

When I buy a computer game the first thing I want to know about is the challenge level of the computer AI, not whether it is "multiplayer or PBEM" or not, so we ALL have different varieties of how we enjoy playing a computer game. So to say the "only" reason to play against the computer ai is to "test something" is completely and totally wrong as far as the "only" reason. It is "your" reason, but, certainly not the majorities reason. ;)



Actually the first "computer" games or video games were not made with any AI at all. They were made for two humans to play each other using the computer as a medium. And AI-less games are cheaper games. Lets have more of those cheaper games.

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 13
RE: Signs from the AI - 10/6/2004 10:15:37 AM   
arcseed

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 9/2/2003
Status: offline 		Mr. Parker, I'm not quite sure you properly apprehend the situation the Axis forces are in in the early turns of the game. Your ai concerns are mostly that the Germans aren't aggressive enough, when being any less defensive would be a very bad idea.

You complain that the panzer divisions don't attack west of Caen. There are, of course, three panzer divisions facing four infantry divisions, an armored division, and an airborne division. And any attack that would leave units in the clear terrain east of Caen is begging for an even more devastating counterattack. Besides, their objective is to defend Caen, and the city is very good defensive terrain. Once you did their job for them by retreating west of the Orne and blowing Pegasus Bridge, what do they really need to do? I will admit that te ai is not very good about attacking exposed units then retreating back to the safety of the city. But if you were careful about it, the Germans may just not have had any good targets.

You complain that the German forces retreat across the whole front, when they really don't have much of a choice. The 352nd infantry at Omaha is facing two infantry divisions, soon to be three and probably 2nd armored as well. It can defend further forward than the computer likes to, but that needs to be managed very skillfully, or the division can be surrounded and eliminated. And why should it? The defensible position at the riverline is only an inconvenience, making the second wave come in at the far western side of the beachead to avoid damage. The weak 716th infantry can't do much of anything except slow down one of the British infantry divisions. The two infantry divisions that are activated at Utah can't do much against the airborne divisions-- establising a strong defence at Carentan and a weaker one in the direction of Cherbourg are about all you can hope for.

You probably have a point about Bayeaux-- but I'm not sure. If the allied player is careless with the recon units on the first turn, there's a good chance he can't take Bayeaux on the second, and most of the 50th infantry can get to a position where it can attack units in Bayeaux, but not enter the city. It may just not be worth the damage the units in the city would take. And Bayeaux really isn't going to last past turn 3 anyway. Four if you're really unlucky, and that's not worth losing the units defending the city.

The supply unit is disappointing-- but I've not seen it be that careless yet, and it was in an area of the front where the Germans just don't have the forces to protect much of anything. And probably there was interdiction either interfering with its movements, or that it was trying to supply past, no? And it's not like humans, and pretty good ones at that, haven't been known to make similar mistakes.

As for how your game is going-- I think you'll find that once those two panzer divisions come in as reinforcements on turn four and you start running into supply problems south of Caen, things will be a bit more interesting. I won't say difficult, since the ai still won't provide much of a challenge to a good player, but it will play well enough to make for an interesting game.

The basic fact of the matter-- you say the game is going really well for you and the ai has basically fallen to pieces on you, but, really, what have you accomplished? It sounds like you've picked up a lot of territory, but except for the doomed city of Bayeaux, none of it was worth anything. Carentan is still in enemy hands. Caen probably is-- I don't see it falling as easily as you think. Have you done much damage to the Axis forces? Eliminated the 716th infantry? Or a unit or two of the 352nd or 91st air landing? Picked off a recon unit or two? Because that's what matters at this point, and I think the ai does tend to do a fairly decent job of preserving its forces. (not wonderful, still, but what do you expect?)

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 14
RE: Signs from the AI - 10/6/2004 11:23:44 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: arcseed

Mr. Parker, I'm not quite sure you properly apprehend the situation the Axis forces are in in the early turns of the game. Your ai concerns are mostly that the Germans aren't aggressive enough, when being any less defensive would be a very bad idea.


Thank you for your reply but no sir that isn't my concern.

quote:

ORIGINAL: arcseed

The supply unit is disappointing-- but I've not seen it be that careless yet, and it was in an area of the front where the Germans just don't have the forces to protect much of anything.


That sir is my prime concern and a possible flaw in the AI design. You never leave a supply unit alone.

This behavior is exacerbated by the 12th SS now freezing itself east of the blown Caen river bridge as from Turn 1. As alluded to, possibly it is simply a case of the AI being thrown by the 6th AB's ability to blow the north Caen bridge. A lucky landing for the AB perhaps in being able to move west before the German 1st turn response.

Please feel free to call me Adam.

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Post #: 15
RE: Signs from the AI - 10/6/2004 2:26:33 PM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline 		Adam, one reason the SS might not be attacking early is a lack of artillery support. It takes a while, occasionally, to get them in place AND to have enough units to protect them while the rest of the units take the offensive. Believe me, I doubt they'll go across the destroyed bridge, but the SS is coming for you.

FWIW, I never blow the Pegasus bridge. That's the one the Allies are "supposed" to hold right? Seems you're being very defensive minded around Caen, heh heh...

Also, since you're upset about the SS sitting there, why not just take Caen. It's easy isn't it?

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Post #: 16
Final prelim observation - 10/6/2004 2:39:56 PM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline 		Ok, made it all the way to turn 6. Two regiments of the German 352nd Inf were destroyed in the last 2 turns and the remainder begin completely encirlced occupying 2 hexes southwest of Bayeaux (roughly 7 km away using Gregor's announced hex scale).

One half of the encircling force comes from the US Omaha sector, the other mainly 2 British divisions, from Gold. Assorted armored and inf units such as armored btn's, Rangers and Royal Marines supplement each side. Interestingly in BiN US and Commonwealth forces cannot cooperate in attack so careful attention is needed to ensure that as many attacking hexsides per attacking country face each encircled enemy regiment. The number of hexsides attacked from can markedly influence a battle.

Two attacks proceed - big glowing red D2's and D3's and the entire 352nd Inf Div is kaput - dead. So much for retreating!

But the AI begins to rustle. Though yet to hear the sound of a German attack, Utah falls under immense build-up pressure from the west and south and the terrain does not suit the US 2nd Armored in the pocket for maneuver. Southwest of Omaha, contact is made with the German "???" Div (not giving anything away - not that the scenario will play the same way twice) and things come to a grinding halt there. There's just not enough US reinforcement to probe as strongly and as widely as I'd wish and the operational gap between Omaha and Gold is now huge. At Caen, Lehr has come alive and has begun to probe west exactly as I suggested looking for my right flank and army boundary. Yet the HJ remains fixated on the east bank and the 21st PzD is yet to decide what it wishes to do. I'd wager that unless I breakthrough south at Carentan, every German reinforcement will go to Omaha (that's what I'd do) but...

As the turn ends I make a big mistake and forget to apply Allied air interdiction. (Another note - in BiN each side may toggle actions applicable to it, so both the British and US receive different amounts of things such as interdiction and these will apply to different areas of the map - yet, setting each can only be conducted one side at a time by a toggle switch - very easy to use and understand. This too effects such things as country related info displays).

So Turn 6 ends and the German AI springs to life. All sectors of the line begin to re-arrange themselves (albeit for the HJ). But one thing is for sure. Under Allied air interdiction, the Germans, whilst not losing strength, do lose immense time. So....

Alas - for that error and the anomaly of the lost German supply unit, I decide to restart. Let's see what the next DDay week can bring at officially 2.5km per hex and not 4.

There is a game to be had here folks. Just some patch issues to resolve and hopefully an AI that won't make silly errors. With that I retire this night with the tome "Eisenhower's Lieutenants" in hand looking for some inspiration in order to bring the war to an end in 1944 through sheer genius and not for want of a gallant AI opponent

Adam.

< Message edited by Adam Parker -- 10/6/2004 10:43:28 PM >

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 17
RE: Final prelim observation - 10/6/2004 3:52:52 PM   
PresbyterJohn

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/1/2004
Status: offline 		Did you notice the statement re hex scale being 2.5 km. You can't argue with reality no matter what the manual may say.

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Post #: 18
RE: Final prelim observation - 10/6/2004 5:37:39 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		LOL RESTART??? no way man, Ike didn't get no restarts, now you finish that game out and take your punishment! hehe

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Post #: 19
RE: Final prelim observation - 10/6/2004 5:50:12 PM   
benpark

 

Posts: 3884
Joined: 8/12/2002
Status: offline 		It's hard to make a good judgement on this particular game until you have seen an entire scenario play out vs. the AI. It certainly does spring to life, as I have found-particularly in the UK sector. Finish that game Adam, and then I'd like to read your outcome.

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Post #: 20
RE: Final prelim observation - 10/6/2004 8:03:30 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

LOL RESTART??? no way man, Ike didn't get no restarts, now you finish that game out and take your punishment! hehe


You mean they coulnd´t save . I wonder how Rommel got his PBEM turns.

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Post #: 21
RE: Final prelim observation - 10/6/2004 8:15:16 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Interesing note Marc regarding Rommel, he was injured by an air interdiction attack while moving in his staff car during daylight

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Post #: 22
Time to restart - 10/7/2004 2:46:20 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

LOL RESTART??? no way man, Ike didn't get no restarts, now you finish that game out and take your punishment! hehe


This was just a prelim observation thread. Not an S&M session!

No, I'll go for a restart and I'll be lucky if I can get the same great performance from my Navy and British AB again! But if Jerry leaves his supply trucks open, I'm going to be really disillusioned... pending a patch!

Lesson - DO NOT FORGET YOUR INTERDICTION!

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 23
RE: Time to restart - 10/7/2004 4:46:17 AM   
Gregor_SSG


Posts: 681
Joined: 3/6/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

LOL RESTART??? no way man, Ike didn't get no restarts, now you finish that game out and take your punishment! hehe


This was just a prelim observation thread. Not an S&M session!

No, I'll go for a restart and I'll be lucky if I can get the same great performance from my Navy and British AB again! But if Jerry leaves his supply trucks open, I'm going to be really disillusioned... pending a patch!

Lesson - DO NOT FORGET YOUR INTERDICTION!


I'm sorry if my posts so far haven't made the following point clear. While there are a few minor bugs that will eventually need to be patched, at the moment we have no intention of changing the AI in the patch.

Why is that, you might ask, when it clearly made a mistake? The issue is one of perceptions and benchmarks.

The AI routines are very complex, and even the move of a single unit involves many calculations. This complexity means that it is very hard to pick out a single unit and give a definitive statement as to why it behaved exactly as it did.

Furthermore, even if you have a definite answer about a single unit, it is impossible to predict all the ramifications of even a simple change to the routines.

So instead of thinking of the AI routines as single, discrete entity like say the combat routines, think of them as a complex, interelated system like the human body, where the results of intervention are not always possible to predict.

As for the benchmarks, I would say that to produce an AI system that made only one mistake per game is well nigh impossible. An AI that gets things mostly right is quite an achievement, and an AI that gets it right more often than not is still well above industry standards.

So on the basis that you don't do surgery just because the patient has a headache, we're not planning to make any changes to the AI move routines. If we get multiple reports of similar problems, then we would investigate further, but save games with repeatable instances would really help.

Gregor

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(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 24
RE: Time to restart - 10/7/2004 5:30:50 AM   
arcseed

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 9/2/2003
Status: offline 		Excuse me, Adam, for misunderstanding you. Since you spent more time talking about the computer "wasting" the 12th ss by not getting them to the beaches than about the supply truck mistake, and since you started complaining about the ai before it lost the supply truck, you can understand my mistake.

And that the supply truck thing seems... a rather small thing to so condemn the ai over. It's a mistake, and a fairly big one, but nothing game-breaking enough to make the ai terrible for letting it happen once. Repeatedly, sure. But the Germans have enough supply trucks it's not going to cause permanent supply problems.

(in reply to Gregor_SSG)
Post #: 25
RE: Time to restart - 10/8/2004 3:42:03 AM   
kverdon

 

Posts: 85
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Tigard, Oregon USA
Status: offline 		Gregor,

In refering to an AI patch, I'm wondering if Ravinhood was refering to the fact that to kill the re-supply bug, you have to play on AI Minus (AI-). Playing at AI minus gives the impression you a dumbing down the AI. What he may have meant was that a Patch to fix the re-supply bug would enable you to move the AI up from AI Minus and without the minus, the AI might do a better job. Is the sole effect of setting the AI to AI minus to disable scripting or does it affect other gameplay and "smartness" of the AI?

thanks,

Kevin

(in reply to arcseed)
Post #: 26
RE: Time to restart - 10/8/2004 6:26:26 AM   
Gregor_SSG


Posts: 681
Joined: 3/6/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kverdon

Gregor,

In refering to an AI patch, I'm wondering if Ravinhood was refering to the fact that to kill the re-supply bug, you have to play on AI Minus (AI-). Playing at AI minus gives the impression you a dumbing down the AI. What he may have meant was that a Patch to fix the re-supply bug would enable you to move the AI up from AI Minus and without the minus, the AI might do a better job. Is the sole effect of setting the AI to AI minus to disable scripting or does it affect other gameplay and "smartness" of the AI?

thanks,

Kevin


The AI Minus setting simply ignores any scripting. There is no scripting in any BIN scenario, so playing on AI Minus won't dumb down the AI in any way.

Gregor

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Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.

(in reply to kverdon)
Post #: 27
RE: Time to restart - 10/8/2004 7:21:53 PM   
TheHellPatrol


Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG
The AI Minus setting simply ignores any scripting. There is no scripting in any BIN scenario, so playing on AI Minus won't dumb down the AI in any way.

Gregor
So what exactly is the difference then between - and +/++? Just combat bonuses?

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Post #: 28
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