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I like the game system, but the game does not feel right

 
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I like the game system, but the game does not feel right - 1/9/2005 7:18:32 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		You know, I like the game, but I do not like the feel for the game, it doesn't look or act like anything I have ever read about the battle (and there are tons of books on the matter)

like the first day of the landings, the GE forces, couldn't/wouldn't move, waiting on orders, waiting on other troops to catch up, not sure what was going on

in the game, first day, the GE is running around the map like mad men

which is another point, what good is interdickion in the game ? the GE forces couldn't move in the day time, those that did, got toar up, seems to me like the game should be set up to try for losses die roll each interdickion hex entered

plus, the designers can say what they want about the AI not getting mods to the die roll on your attacks, but ran a little test, got a 10-1+ attack near Cantain, saved the game, then went to the attack, a 1 or 2 is nothing, 3 the AI gets hurt, 4 or better the AI is KIA, rolled 7 1's in a row, then rolled 3 2's, then went back and rolled another 10 1's

I had enough forces in the area, so was able to set the battle so it would change each time, on the 21st roll, I got a 3, so ended the test

guestion, how does the combat adviser work ?, it seems to get much higher odds, then I can even try to set up, but then as a oddity, I was moving up off the beaches and caught part of the 352nd Div as they pulled back, I check it, and it showed me being able to get a 5-1 on two of the units, but nothing on the rest of the units I was next to, which when I did attack, and didn't move any thing else, I had a great attack on the flank unit it didn't give me any odds for and destroyed it

well guess I got another one too
I only on day two of the Overlord campaign, from day one, it shows I killed 2 GE units and the GE got 1 Allied, I didn't lose anybody, and if I go to the check Dead unit map screen, I didn't lose anybody
the scoring shows I lost 1 unit for 60 points, the AI has lost 6 units for 132 points (or so) and 57 forts

oops, guess another complaint/question (depends on your point of view)

why can't the seapower move any closer to Cherberg (the Port, sorry for my spelling) the RL battle, Seapower was a major factor in breaking the defence

Like I said, like the Game/Game system, just don't feel like I am playing/fighting, a battle in Normady

HARD_Sarge

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RE: I like the game system, but the game does not feel ... - 1/9/2005 9:59:44 PM   
Toby42


Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: offline 		I'm with you about die rolls. They say that the AI doesn't cheat, but you almost always roll one's or two's when you attack a victory point. I attacked Carentan continually at 9 to 1 odds and never rolled a high number.. I even saved the game and ran the attack over and over. Same results... But when the AI attacks, it gets multiple hits on my units. I was able to overcome these unlucky?? rolls because the Allies have a lot of units and repalcements!!!!

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Tony

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RE: I like the game system, but the game does not feel ... - 1/9/2005 11:18:01 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		it is funny, the designers (?) posted how it is just bad luck, that there is no mods or cheats in the game, but makes you wonder when so many people report it or complain about it

HARD_Sarge

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RE: I like the game system, but the game does not feel ... - 1/10/2005 5:54:47 AM   
Gregor_SSG


Posts: 681
Joined: 3/6/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

it is funny, the designers (?) posted how it is just bad luck, that there is no mods or cheats in the game, but makes you wonder when so many people report it or complain about it

HARD_Sarge


Yes, the designers posted that it's just bad luck. Again I say, the AI does not cheat on dice rolls. To resolve this issue, there are two alternatives to consider.

(1) We are a bunch of flat out, two faced liers.

(2) At least once in your game playing career, you were unlucky.

I leave the matter there for people to form their own judgements.

As for your other questions, when I start the Overlord game, I see a large number of German units that are surprised. Those that are close to Allied units, or belong to divisions which have formations close to Allied units are not surprised, which seems fair enough to me. Although there was a lot of confusion on the German side, there was also a fair amount local initiative shown by, or forced upon, the defenders.

If you think Interdiction is useless, then try playing a game without using it. Then try playing against a human player, and they'll happily show you how it can be used! See the article on the SSG website for some ideas on how to place the critical first turn interdiction.

Each time you have a combat, you must recheck the combat advisor, because conditions have changed. All odds shown by the Combat Advisor can be achieved, but you have to move the units indicated to the positions shown to guarantee this. If you move them to places other than those shown, then you may not get the odds.

There's currently some debate over exactly whether Cherbourg was bombarded, but in the game you can get pretty close to the center of town if you position your Battleships in the right place.

Gregor

_____________________________

Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 4
RE: I like the game system, but the game does not feel ... - 1/10/2005 7:47:53 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Hi Gregor
well first off I normally try and be polite when I post, and never tried to say you were bold faced liers

but it sure does start to look like it, when you have 17 out of 20 die rolls that are 1's, and the other 3 are 2's, that sir, is not bad luck, that is a number generater that rolls low, the random seeds for each side my be different (or if the seed is set at the start of the turn, that could turn out to be bad luck)and if I was the only one asking about it, I would agree I may have some bad luck, but everybody else is having bad luck too ?

yes, I have been to your fourm also, it still looks like the GE AI has too much freedom of action, even with interdicktion being used, of course, I am new to the game, and have not seen the game from the GE side

again, I am new to the game, so will have to watch and see if it gets any better

Cherburg ? hmmm, will have to look, thought that was part of the reason the GE commander gave up, was when he was shown the fire plan for that afternoon's bombardment (he was shocked that the US knew where all of his strongpoints were and what they were named)

still say, the game system, seems to fit a battle with out massive airpower in play

HARD_Sarge

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RE: I like the game system, but the game does not feel ... - 1/10/2005 1:50:33 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Hi Gregor
wondering, has anybody looked at the code to see if there may not be a bug in the die rolls, since a number of people are saying the same thing ?

started up a game as the GE playing Overlord, and it does look like the Allied AI is rolling pretty low, while my rolls have all been 5-6's (while I got to admit, I have not had many rolls, does seem interesting, that the Allies had a lot of miss bombardment rolls,and it's attacks were all 3 or under in combat so far)

and will say, after playing the GE for a bit, maybe the interdicktion is not the hassle, the GE sure seem to have a lot of movement factors

still say the game doesn't "feel" right, moving Div's across the coast road, with all those BB's sitting right off shore of them

day 2, got more then 4 Div's dug into Caan and the GB Airborne Div has been destroyed

HARD_Sarge

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RE: I like the game system, but the game does not feel ... - 1/10/2005 7:09:30 PM   
AnimalAl


Posts: 55
Joined: 2/18/2004
From: Washington DC
Status: offline 		I agree wholeheartedly with Sarge. I am a newbie but understand military strategy and history. I have been deep into the Overlord scenario and been very frustrated not to have captured Carentan before D+20. Sure maybe it's my lack of understanding the game's mechanics, but as a simulation, this should more accurately reflect the low morale and hesitancy to move that many German units had historically. I really really hate seeing those 9-1 and 10-1 odds and rolling 1's repeatedly. Then a german unit slips between the cracks of my lines and destroys two-three arty units before I can collapse the lines and destroy him. WTF?

I tried spreading out my units to better surround and cut off the Germans, then the AI rolls up and slams the iron fist into my line, wiping out brigades at a time. Maybe I have to try solitare to see the other side but this doesn't match history, and I have been feveriously reading D-Day histories to get a better grip on the strategies. Would love a patch that made the AI not complacent but perhaps better matched to history, and an investigation of the die rolls seems to be in order.

_____________________________

"Military strategy is the diplomacy of violence" (Thomas Schnelling).

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RE: I like the game system, but the game does not feel ... - 1/10/2005 7:45:50 PM   
2gaulle

 

Posts: 466
Joined: 2/16/2004
From: Montreal
Status: offline
quote:

I am a newbie but understand military strategy and history


sorry but you are a newbie and you don't understand military strategy.

it's not important to concentrate too many unit. more important is to be able to move quickly. Manoeuvre it's all.

quote:

this should more accurately reflect the low morale and hesitancy to move that many German units had historically.


historically, until august the moral was generaly hight and in the game there are many low moral unit.

(in reply to AnimalAl)
Post #: 8
RE: I like the game system, but the game does not feel ... - 1/10/2005 8:14:27 PM   
Toby42


Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: offline 		One of the things that really frosts me is that Ost Battalions hold up an Armored division for more than one term.

And 2gualle, Back off of the Newbie

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Tony

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RE: I like the game system, but the game does not feel ... - 1/10/2005 8:39:04 PM   
stevel40831


Posts: 83
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimalAl
I agree wholeheartedly with Sarge. I am a newbie but understand military strategy and history. I have been deep into the Overlord scenario and been very frustrated not to have captured Carentan before D+20. Sure maybe it's my lack of understanding the game's mechanics...


Hi Animal... the trick to capturing Carentan is to work your way around it (from both directions) while assaulting from the front each turn. It is not difficult to work your way through the swampy area to the east and it's even easier to push across the river to the west. Either, or both, of these working will help to make the city fall quicker as you should be striking with air interdictions at the same time. Note the road network into the city really restricts supplies, especially with nice swamp hexes directly to the south. If you try to take the city head on you will have all kinds of problems -- maneuver is the key.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimalAl
I really really hate seeing those 9-1 and 10-1 odds and rolling 1's repeatedly. Then a german unit slips between the cracks of my lines and destroys two-three arty units before I can collapse the lines and destroy him. WTF? I tried spreading out my units to better surround and cut off the Germans, then the AI rolls up and slams the iron fist into my line, wiping out brigades at a time. Maybe I have to try solitare to see the other side but this doesn't match history, and I have been feveriously reading D-Day histories to get a better grip on the strategies. Would love a patch that made the AI not complacent but perhaps better matched to history, and an investigation of the die rolls seems to be in order.


I have played quite a few games of BiN (as well as KP and AtD) and have not noticed the dice-roll problem you guys are mentioning. Sometimes I get irritated if I roll 2 of them in a row, but, even a 1 on a 9-1/10-1 can sometimes be helpful as it will wear down the supplies of the defender(s)... even these unsuccessful attacks, combined with good use of the interdiction can really paralyze the German defenses.

Again, speaking from a fair amount of experience here... if Germans are slipping through "cracks" then you're doing something very wrong... they're not cracks, they're gaping holes It sounds like you're leaving your units too far apart and/or not defending in good positions... for example, at Utah Beach you want to keep a close eye on the road network as just a handful of American units can defend a pretty wide area because of the swampy areas and key intersections that connect the towns. Even in the British sector where the terrain is more wide open you should not have German units running around in the rear. In this sector you can make better use of detachments to block areas or slow enemy movement down. It sounds like you have the right idea and maybe just need more "training"... it'll give you a good excuse to play the game more! Don't give up on it, it's a great game engine and the PBEM is awesome!

I have quite a few games going already, but, if you'd like to play some BiN Overlord for training purposes let me know!

Steve

< Message edited by stevel40831 -- 1/10/2005 6:42:49 PM >

(in reply to AnimalAl)
Post #: 10
RE: I like the game system, but the game does not feel ... - 1/10/2005 10:07:10 PM   
AnimalAl


Posts: 55
Joined: 2/18/2004
From: Washington DC
Status: offline 		Treale, Steve, thanks for the words of advice. Don't get me wrong, I do love this game (or at least it's potential) having been a longtime fan of Panzer Leader/Panzer Blitz. I do think I need to slow down and take a look at the use of the function keys to analyze the terrain and units, the use of detachments to secure the rear areas is very interesting and I need to try that to (was wondering what the hell those were for).

I swear, I wish I could record some of the turns where the AI was moving out. One hex gaps in my lines and he's moving a recon unit through to kill my SP arty units. Moves his units near Omaha to support Carentan and wipes out the 2d Armored Div (that really frosted my butt). Pushing out of Caen and leveling 50 percent kills on division stacks. Although maybe I should not have pushed Caen, seeing as Monty couldn't take it in a month after D-Day.

Great forum, great suggestions, thanks.

_____________________________

"Military strategy is the diplomacy of violence" (Thomas Schnelling).

(in reply to stevel40831)
Post #: 11
RE: I like the game system, but the game does not feel ... - 1/11/2005 1:18:13 AM   
Gregor_SSG


Posts: 681
Joined: 3/6/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Hi Gregor
wondering, has anybody looked at the code to see if there may not be a bug in the die rolls, since a number of people are saying the same thing ?

started up a game as the GE playing Overlord, and it does look like the Allied AI is rolling pretty low, while my rolls have all been 5-6's (while I got to admit, I have not had many rolls, does seem interesting, that the Allies had a lot of miss bombardment rolls,and it's attacks were all 3 or under in combat so far)

and will say, after playing the GE for a bit, maybe the interdicktion is not the hassle, the GE sure seem to have a lot of movement factors

still say the game doesn't "feel" right, moving Div's across the coast road, with all those BB's sitting right off shore of them

day 2, got more then 4 Div's dug into Caan and the GB Airborne Div has been destroyed

HARD_Sarge


HARD_Sarge,

No problems, what we're dealing with here is the fallibility of human memory, designed by nature to keep us alive. That is to say, we are programmed to pay much more attention to the one time we were attacked by a leopard at the waterhole, rather than the 999 times that we weren't.

On the dice roll matter, all I can finally say is that it all evens out in the end. That's why we put the dice display in the game (cycle the 'q' key till you find it) to quantify just how your luck is going.

Re the coast road and the BBs, the road might not be exactly on the beach, it could easily be invisible from the sea, and if the BBs don't have someone to spot and correct fire then it's hard to hit anything.

On the subject of BBs, don't forget that they can do interdiction of their own. The fight in the British sector usually moves out of their range fairly quickly, but they can be very useful as interdictors as well as bombarders in the fight for the Cotentin and Cherbourg itself.

As for German movement factors, the Allies start with no reserve OPs having just waded ashore, while the Germans have full reserve tanks. So the Germans can race around for a few turns, but then their reserves run out. After that, they find it very difficult to build them up again, as every German unit is needed on the front line. After a while, the Allies have enough units to be able to refit, and build up their reserves.

When you can orchestrate an assault on the German line which creates a gap, through which you push say a US armored division which has been held out of the line to build up its reserve OPs, and you see German units unable to run far enough because they have no reserve OPs, and others unable to seal the gap for the same reason, then you really will feel that you've recreated history.

As a shortcut, you can check out the situation at the start of the Breakout scenario, where the Germans are on their last legs, and the US armoured divs are refitting in the rear. When they become available, then the fun starts.

Gregor

_____________________________

Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 12
RE: I like the game system, but the game does not feel ... - 1/11/2005 6:56:21 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Hi Gregor
fair enough

will be trying new ideas and what not to get the most out of it :)

HARD_Sarge

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