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I-16c rules the skies

 
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I-16c rules the skies - 1/11/2005 10:47:15 PM   
BlackVoid


Posts: 639
Joined: 10/17/2003
Status: offline 		In my PBEM I got this strange result. I-16c very likely had the altitude advantage, but still weird.... It seems that being outnumbered more than 10 to 1 does not matter much.

Actual air-2-air losses:

Ki-43-Ib Hayabusha (Oscar) - 5
I-16c - 0

Combat report:

Day Air attack on Chungking , at 43,32

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 0-Sen x 23
Ki-43-Ib Hayabusa x 62
Ki-44-IIb Shoki x 3
Ki-21-II x 50
Ki-48-II x 26
Ki-15 Karigane x 6

Allied aircraft
I-16c x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ib Hayabusa: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-21-II : 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
I-16c: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged
P-40B Tomahawk: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged
I-153c: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
55 casualties reported

Airbase hits 8
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 20

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x Ki-21-II bombing at 6000 feet
12 x Ki-21-II bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Ki-48-II bombing at 6000 feet
7 x Ki-21-II bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Ki-21-II bombing at 6000 feet
10 x Ki-48-II bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Ki-48-II bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-48-II bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-48-II bombing at 6000 feet
Post #: 1
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/11/2005 10:49:18 PM   
PeteG662


Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		One or two of your pilots in the Chinese squadrons are REALLY good if you check them. I saw one guy in the 90s at scenario start!

(in reply to BlackVoid)
Post #: 2
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/11/2005 10:50:47 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

One or two of your pilots in the Chinese squadrons are REALLY good if you check them. I saw one guy in the 90s at scenario start!


Soooo what? LOL

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Post #: 3
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/11/2005 11:07:46 PM   
BlackVoid


Posts: 639
Joined: 10/17/2003
Status: offline 		My view on this, that in an air battle with planes of similar capability where one side is not totally outclassed, the factors that decide the outcome:

1. number of planes
2. pilot experience
3. aircraft

Now the I-16c is totally outclassed even by the Oscar. If it was China's best pilots then I can live with the result, but otherwise, really strange. Especially in a game where plane performance seems to be the number 1 factor.

BTW: are a dozen Corsairs still slaughtering veteran Zeros when badly outnumbered, like in UV?

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 4
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/11/2005 11:13:17 PM   
PeteG662


Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		Check and see who got the kills here! Hey Ron.....

(in reply to BlackVoid)
Post #: 5
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/11/2005 11:36:23 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Check and see who got the kills here! Hey Ron.....


I'm an equal opportunity critic!

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 6
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/11/2005 11:40:03 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		Lt. Lo is my top ace with 35 kills in his I-16.

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"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


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Post #: 7
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/11/2005 11:40:37 PM   
BlackVoid


Posts: 639
Joined: 10/17/2003
Status: offline 		Asked my opponent.
Squadron leader with 90xp got 3 kills.
Another 2 60-70xp pilots got 1 kill each. I-16c operated at max altituted, my fighters flew in escorting bombers at 6000ft, so I guess at 8000.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 8
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/12/2005 12:15:16 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

BTW: are a dozen Corsairs still slaughtering veteran Zeros when badly outnumbered, like in UV?

My first inexperienced corsairs suffered badly.. but as they gain experience they are deadly.. shouldn't corsairs wipe all jap planes out as they did historically?

(in reply to BlackVoid)
Post #: 9
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/12/2005 12:25:57 AM   
BlackVoid


Posts: 639
Joined: 10/17/2003
Status: offline 		By the time the Corsair appeared, Japan no longer had many experienced pilots. More than half of them were rookies.
The US has already won the air war with F4F-4s at Midway and Guadalcanal. Japan was outnumbered and slow but steady attrition drained away the good pilots. It was already over when the Corsair appeared.

If Japan could have a big numerical advantage + veteran pilots, I am not sure that Corsairs would have helped that much. In UV 10 Corsairs punished 50 veteran Zeros.

It is always the man not the machine...

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 10
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/12/2005 12:44:06 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		The corsair had a huge speed and firepower advantage, so like the 38 could use the "zoom and boom: tactics where they would bounce the enemy, as best possible and not get in a tangled godfight but "extend" away and set up another pass at higher speeds, not much a slower lighter armed plane can do but evade and shoot as the enemy flies off... it would be a turkey shoot for similar level skilled pilots to face each other in any war year with the exception of the very late war faster jap planes.. cerrtanly the Zero had great abilities, just was too out classed by the corsair

< Message edited by freeboy -- 1/12/2005 6:45:08 AM >

(in reply to BlackVoid)
Post #: 11
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/12/2005 1:11:21 AM   
BlackVoid


Posts: 639
Joined: 10/17/2003
Status: offline 		Surprise is a bigger factor even than tactics. Most kills in WW2 were achieved against an enemy who did not even know.

What helps surprise? Numbers and xp.

Have you actually tried boom and zoom in a sim? Very hard to get a kill if the enemy knows you are coming. Of course it is the best way to stay alive.
I am not saying that boom and zoom is not better than turnfighting. It was a combination of factors that won the air war. Superior planes help you winning, but if the enemy has better pilots + numerical advantage then you are toast.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 12
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/12/2005 1:21:31 AM   
BlackVoid


Posts: 639
Joined: 10/17/2003
Status: offline 		Think Germany 1944.
Me-262 is superior to anything the allies fly. But it is badly outnumbered. Germany lost.

No matter how good your plane is, numbers matter a lot, especially in the long run. If you can win with a superior plane when you are badly outnumbered then then the model is not right.

If numbers + xp are comparable than Corsair should kick ass. Badly outnumbered against more experienced opposition: any type of plane should suffer. Maybe not in losses but in ability in engaging and getting kills. You can always dive and run in a Corsair and stay alive, but that will not win the war.

I hope this is fixed from UV. Above result is hopefully just a one-time fluke (which is explaneable).

(in reply to BlackVoid)
Post #: 13
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/12/2005 3:36:24 AM   
denisonh


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline 		Quantity has a quality all of its own

-Marshal Georgi Zhukov

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"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

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Post #: 14
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/12/2005 10:33:51 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

One or two of your pilots in the Chinese squadrons are REALLY good if you check them. I saw one guy in the 90s at scenario start!


In my game against AI I transferred one I-16c unit to Yenen. When March 1942 came, the top allied ace was named Lo, with 16 kills. His experience was 99 in that point !!! Of top 10 Allied aces, 4 were from this same Chinese unit, I think it was 11th CFS or something like that. Pity that CPT Lo is listed WIA now, but second in same unit has 9 kills.

But of course they are shooting down hapless AI Nates and Sonias....

Cheers,

M.S.

(in reply to PeteG662)
Post #: 15
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/12/2005 2:01:48 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

quote:

BTW: are a dozen Corsairs still slaughtering veteran Zeros when badly outnumbered, like in UV?

My first inexperienced corsairs suffered badly.. but as they gain experience they are deadly.. shouldn't corsairs wipe all jap planes out as they did historically?


Corsairs were often engaged in big battles. The biggest air battle, the worst overclaiming (at any place and time in WWII). It seems to me that the real kill-ratio of the Corsair was rather 2-3 to 1 than the 7-10 to 1 I have seen in WITP and UV.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 16
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/12/2005 7:33:46 PM   
Djordje

 

Posts: 537
Joined: 9/12/2004
Status: offline 		In my current PBEM I had to bring 2 A6M2 Datais in China to take care of Chinese aces. I've managed to bring most of them to the ground, but at a high cost. I've lost three 90+ exp pilots in F1 Yamada in just one day, and several more in next few days.
And several times I've seen those Chinese planes shot down a Zero or two without losses, then proceed to kill couple of bombers. And funny thing was that I had 20 or more Zero escorts and there were only few Chinese planes in the air... One time it was a singe I-16 that killed a Zero, escaped the others and killed two bombers...
I am fine with this though, I asked my PBEM opponent and he said that remaining Chinese pilots were all above 80 exp, some of them above 90. Things such this give me hope that if I manage to keep my experienced pilots alive I'll be able to do much better than Japan historicaly did...

(in reply to AmiralLaurent)
Post #: 17
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/12/2005 8:29:11 PM   
KPAX


Posts: 735
Joined: 6/3/2004
From: Where the heart is; Home of the Fighting Irish
Status: offline 		Maybe those were not kills by the Chinese pilots, but since the Jap's had so many up there at one time they were running into each other ?

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"War makes Heros on both sides." Hero (the movie)



Thanks !!

KPAX

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Post #: 18
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/12/2005 9:37:19 PM   
PeteG662


Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		There is something to the experience level no doubt about that! I usually have the top scoring ace early on in the Chinese squadrons and the guys with kills are usually in the 90s!

(in reply to KPAX)
Post #: 19
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/13/2005 6:10:55 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		1LT Lo is back in service from being WIA . He has 16 kills in 16 missions...not bad...and had his experience rise from 92 to 99. Still the top scoring Allied ace in mid-April 1942. Rest of the 11th CFS is also in quite a good shape...couple other pilots are in 80+ exp, 3 are 70+ and only 2 or 3 replacement pilots are under 50. Of course, every casualty causes the exp level of squadron to plummet, due to low quality of Chinese replacement pilots.

AVG is also doing fine in Burma-India, but faces lot tougher opposition. 21st FS and RAAF Kittyhawk squadron in Port Moresby have had very good time against Zeros abd Betties from Rabaul too.

One curiosity is also FO Drake..9 kills flying Buffalo I against Zeroes

Cheers,

M.S.

(in reply to PeteG662)
Post #: 20
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/13/2005 7:00:41 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

AmiralLaurent


come on buddy, show some numbers, show some facts, the Bentwing bird beat the crap out of the IJA/IJN air forces, over claiming my butt

try and prove how great the IJA/IJN pilots were, talk about overclaiming

a shame during the Turkey shoot, the Admiral in charge thought he had won a great victory, the pilots and ground commanders were sending back reports of Carrier after Carrier being sunk, it was only when he noticed that none of his planes were coming back on the return trip, that he felt something was wrong

(a tip of the hat, that was a great plan, but he didn't know the ground bases were already taken out, (the ground commanders wouldn't tell him, in fact, they were sending messages that not only were they defending the bases, they were inflicking damage to the CV TF's)

I think it is a hassle with the JP mindset back then, they couldn't lose face, so they couldn't tell the truth when it should of been told, instead they told what the commanders wanted to hear

HARD_Sarge

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Post #: 21
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/13/2005 10:20:01 PM   
BlackVoid


Posts: 639
Joined: 10/17/2003
Status: offline 		By the time of the Mariana turkey shoot, Japan has already lost the best pilots. Corsairs never went up agains top-notch opposition. Crappy planes, crappy pilots and outnumbered.

The war was won over Guadalcanal and Midway. Both places japanese strategy made major blunders, allied strategy was brave (although risky).

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 22
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/14/2005 10:07:18 PM   
The Gnome


Posts: 1233
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: denisonh

Quantity has a quality all of its own

-Marshal Georgi Zhukov


I forget who said it but there was a german armor commander who was quoted roughly as saying:

"Our tanks were 10 times better than the American tanks - but they always had 11."

(in reply to denisonh)
Post #: 23
RE: I-16c rules the skies - 1/14/2005 11:29:50 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

By the time of the Mariana turkey shoot, Japan has already lost the best pilots. Corsairs never went up agains top-notch opposition. Crappy planes, crappy pilots and outnumbered.





They had lost their best pilots against f4fs, p-40s, tomahawks, etc.; something tells me they would have lost them against the corsairs as well.

(in reply to BlackVoid)
Post #: 24
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