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Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/19/2005 5:17:52 PM   
madmickey

 

Posts: 1336
Joined: 2/11/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline 		"The decision to take Peleliu still confounds many historians. The strip known as the Palaus was considered operationally insignificant at that late point in the contest to control the Pacific theater. But a battle of wills between the Navy's Chester Nimitz and the Army's Douglas McArthur led to an American operational plan to proceed with the battle on Peleliu."

http://www.thehumorwriter.com/My_Serious_Side/The_Forgotten_Battle/the_forgotten_battle.html

There have been some heated debates on invading Palau. What are people opinion?
Post #: 1
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/19/2005 5:29:00 PM   
Rob322

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 8/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: madmickey

"The decision to take Peleliu still confounds many historians. The strip known as the Palaus was considered operationally insignificant at that late point in the contest to control the Pacific theater. But a battle of wills between the Navy's Chester Nimitz and the Army's Douglas McArthur led to an American operational plan to proceed with the battle on Peleliu."

http://www.thehumorwriter.com/My_Serious_Side/The_Forgotten_Battle/the_forgotten_battle.html

There have been some heated debates on invading Palau. What are people opinion?


Hmmm, well I'm playing the AI as the Allies and I plan to bypass it. I've noted the computer is massing troops on Palau and Truk for their defense and I've been trying to eliminate their air and then move on past them.

(in reply to madmickey)
Post #: 2
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/19/2005 6:05:24 PM   
esteban


Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		Palau doesn't really lead anywhere, and it is not all that useful as an Allied base.

I would skip it in favor of Ulithi or a bunch of places in the Phillipines and the area south of the Phillipines.

(in reply to Rob322)
Post #: 3
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/19/2005 8:21:23 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline 		I finished the entire war and bypassed it. Just keep air units suppressed. Recon showed about 35 units on it. Too me the cost was way to high to try to take it. This was against the ai. Not sure about pbem, doubt if my games will ever get that close. I still won in july 45.

Also I bypassed all of the historical islands that were bypassed in the south seas area,truk and the others.

< Message edited by Titanwarrior89 -- 2/19/2005 1:21:46 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to madmickey)
Post #: 4
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/21/2005 6:07:17 AM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline 		What are you trying to do? Keep that in mind. It is really easy in WITP to get lost in the details and not pay attention to the big picture.

Is Palau necessary for some long term, game winning goal you have? It might be. For example, if it has 35 units on it (as someone said) and you can isolate those 35 units so they starve (for a long time) you will get points. Maybe they will starve so much you can invade and get even more points, but eliminating a lot of units on their last legs.

More likely, Palau will have level 9 fortifications and you will lose troops too while attacking. If, as the allies, your goal is 3:1 odds in 1944 then you had better not lose 1 point for every 3 Japanese you eliminate or you are getting behind your 3:1 goal.

Me, I suggest ignoring it. Ignore anything you can. Go for Iwo or Okinawa or a base in Korea by the least-resistance route (take the base with the largest potential air base that is most poorly defended) and then burn Japan to the ground.

And avoid any fair fight. Only pound poorly defended ships/bases/cities

_____________________________


Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 5
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/21/2005 6:59:24 AM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline 		Palau has an airfield SPS of 3 in-game, so I can see why someone may decide to grab it, but Ulithi is the big target in that group.

_____________________________

I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

(in reply to DrewMatrix)
Post #: 6
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/21/2005 7:09:56 AM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline 		Is it the potential port size that makes Ulithi so attractive?

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to von Murrin)
Post #: 7
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/21/2005 7:13:39 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I just landed at the third Island iin the group, as it was undefended.. and will probably bypass Palue in my pbem gmae and go towards other targets... isolation and expansion as the JAps get in the hole for total available planes/ships at sea vs Allies avail assets.
I am taking a well defended Wewak simpply because it has been isolated so long and I want to kill all those Jap troops.. and my troops, alot of them are already in the area...

< Message edited by freeboy -- 2/22/2005 8:08:45 AM >

(in reply to von Murrin)
Post #: 8
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/21/2005 7:23:14 AM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Is it the potential port size that makes Ulithi so attractive?

Chez


Yes. SPS of 5.

_____________________________

I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 9
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/21/2005 7:23:20 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		My grandfather participated in the landings at Guadalcanal and Vela Levella (4th Marine Def Btn, actually in WitP at PH). Having spent 2 years in the Solomons (including wounded in action), his unit was sent to Guadalcanal to rest, recoup, and train for another invasion. Mumbles had it, they were going to Peleliu. He just -knew- his luck had run out. If he went to Peleliu, he would stay there.

Ends up, one the guns in his battery slipped it carriage as they were readying it to be loaded onto the ship. The Capt said somebody would have to stay behind with the gun. Capt pick my grandfather to stay behind with the gun, and he was happy to oblige.

A week later, his Malaria revisted him, and he was sent back to Pearl Harbor and San Francisco. He recieved news there that casualties at Peleliu were fairly high. He was put on light duty after the malaria, and assigned to the Post Office, where he met my grandmother (who happens to be one of the first women Marines).

I suppose if that gun hadn't broken down, I probably wouldn't be here.

-F-

_____________________________

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(in reply to DrewMatrix)
Post #: 10
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/21/2005 7:42:34 AM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline 		Thanks, Feinder. I love stories like that.

The reason Ulithi is so valuable is because it's the only port with an SPS over 2 in the Central Pacific aside from Truk. The only other is Hollandia at 3. Assuming an Allied can't get Rabaul or Truk, Ulithi is the next best thing. Otherwise, next stop is Manila.

Ulithi is vital. Palau is incidental.

_____________________________

I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 11
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/21/2005 11:23:01 AM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
quote:

Ulithi is vital. Palau is incidental.


Guess that means that I, as a Jap PBEM player, had best find a way to garrison and fortify Ulithi before my opponent gets all of his "toys."

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to von Murrin)
Post #: 12
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/22/2005 2:13:14 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		My Dad and my wifes both servedd in WW2, I have bit by bit dug stories from them, and
My dad was guarding a bridge and after cerfew in Florida they stopped a car, and blood was running out the back, after opening the trunk the guy had poached a giant turtle.. " I gotta feed my kids" they let him go...

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 13
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/22/2005 2:45:16 AM   
byron13


Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline 		Has anyone noticed whether the AI appears to be smart enough to realize that the Allies are bypassing the islands like Truk with 45 units stuffed into them and so transfers units off the island? If not, players playing against the AI will have a tremendous advantage: half of the Japanese army is tied up on, say, three islands, making the rest of the conquest fairly easy.

Of course, I should be doing PBEM anyway, right?

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 14
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/22/2005 3:14:55 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		if you dare

(in reply to byron13)
Post #: 15
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/22/2005 4:42:16 AM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: byron13

Has anyone noticed whether the AI appears to be smart enough to realize that the Allies are bypassing the islands like Truk with 45 units stuffed into them and so transfers units off the island? If not, players playing against the AI will have a tremendous advantage: half of the Japanese army is tied up on, say, three islands, making the rest of the conquest fairly easy.

Of course, I should be doing PBEM anyway, right?


The AI only does that if you sink most of its merchies before it finishes the defensive perimeter. It also doesn't care if units are scattered piecemeal all over the map, so 45 units can actually be 30 fragments and 15 assorted full strength units awaiting redeployment.

_____________________________

I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

(in reply to byron13)
Post #: 16
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/22/2005 4:47:27 AM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

Ulithi is vital. Palau is incidental.


Guess that means that I, as a Jap PBEM player, had best find a way to garrison and fortify Ulithi before my opponent gets all of his "toys."

Chez


Ulithi is irrelevant if you can't hold Manila. If you can, it may be worthwhile to pack out Ulithi if Truk and Rabaul are more or less unassailable.

I'd say outlying island defense goes, in order of preference: Marianas, Truk, Rabaul, Manila, Ulithi, Kwajalein, Eniwetok, Okinawa, Iwo Jima.

_____________________________

I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 17
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/22/2005 4:47:57 AM   
Rob322

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 8/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin

quote:

ORIGINAL: byron13

Has anyone noticed whether the AI appears to be smart enough to realize that the Allies are bypassing the islands like Truk with 45 units stuffed into them and so transfers units off the island? If not, players playing against the AI will have a tremendous advantage: half of the Japanese army is tied up on, say, three islands, making the rest of the conquest fairly easy.

Of course, I should be doing PBEM anyway, right?


The AI only does that if you sink most of its merchies before it finishes the defensive perimeter. It also doesn't care if units are scattered piecemeal all over the map, so 45 units can actually be 30 fragments and 15 assorted full strength units awaiting redeployment.


Yeah, I had a look at the AI's side once after I started playing to see how things worked and noticed that one division was scattered across the map in tiny fragments. Almost one man per unit sort of thing.

(in reply to von Murrin)
Post #: 18
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/22/2005 4:54:22 AM   
byron13


Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

if you dare


Are you talking to me? Are you talking TO ME? Them's fightin' words.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 19
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/22/2005 3:29:58 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

Of course, I should be doing PBEM anyway, right?

OK and yes.. if you dare hehe

< Message edited by freeboy -- 2/22/2005 9:30:30 PM >

(in reply to byron13)
Post #: 20
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/22/2005 4:26:23 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, If the Allies want to use Ulithi as a port they better take Palau. (and Yap) I dont think you really want a size 6 airfield 3 hexes away that is also in range of transfering bombers from Home Islands or PI.
Of course you could spend all your time surpressing it and it depends on Japanese supply requirements there but I'd expect Kamikaze groups to transfer in whenever conditions allowed.
Palau has the airfield and Ulithi has the port. With Yap serving as support to both. It is a complex and must be treated as such if you don't hold all three you have to devote much of the air power on the one you do hold to suppressing the other 2.

Even after you contol all of PI Palau remains in range of transfer of long range bombers.
Since it can hold 300 of them the Japanese can just keep sending them without worry as long as enough supply remains to launch kamikaze attacks. Send 50 bombers and unload 100 supply from submarine and attack your port.

As Japan place your main defense on the larger airfield

< Message edited by Mogami -- 2/22/2005 9:27:32 AM >

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 21
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/23/2005 6:55:21 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

Hi, If the Allies want to use Ulithi as a port they better take Palau. (and Yap) I dont think you really want a size 6 airfield 3 hexes away that is also in range of transfering bombers from Home Islands or PI.
Of course you could spend all your time surpressing it and it depends on Japanese supply requirements there but I'd expect Kamikaze groups to transfer in whenever conditions allowed.
Palau has the airfield and Ulithi has the port. With Yap serving as support to both. It is a complex and must be treated as such if you don't hold all three you have to devote much of the air power on the one you do hold to suppressing the other 2.

Even after you contol all of PI Palau remains in range of transfer of long range bombers.
Since it can hold 300 of them the Japanese can just keep sending them without worry as long as enough supply remains to launch kamikaze attacks. Send 50 bombers and unload 100 supply from submarine and attack your port.

As Japan place your main defense on the larger airfield


I have to disagree here.. no reason that with all the really strong, and numerous air units Ulithi cannot be seized if left ungaurded, and built up and used to suppress any action at Guam or Palue... I have nearly unlimitted replacements in 44, I have so many air groups now in late 43 that I cannot use 35 %.. they just sit in back areas, and the CHEAT of seeingthe jap airbase go from nothing to having air units will be plenty of time to scrambe either a bombard tf or air bombard or both in latter 44 when Kamikazis show up....

I do agree that taking Palue is better than not taking it if the enemy has few troops, but in my pbem Zeta16 has LOTS there, so see ya and we are off to Indonesia and SRA in later 43 early 44, being careful to not activate the 15 sea hex kami rule.. I HATE that rule btw, should be a set date imo...

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 22
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/23/2005 7:08:41 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
quote:

being careful to not activate the 15 sea hex kami rule.. I HATE that rule btw, should be a set date imo...

There is a set date: "...these will never activate before January 1, 1944." After that, they activate in a very realistic way as a response to an unfavorable strategic situation. I think even Ron might agree that kamikaze activation is reasonable

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Post #: 23
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/23/2005 7:09:59 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy
I have to disagree here.. no reason that with all the really strong, and numerous air units Ulithi cannot be seized if left ungaurded, and built up and used to suppress any action at Guam or Palue... I have nearly unlimitted replacements in 44, I have so many air groups now in late 43 that I cannot use 35 %.. they just sit in back areas, and the CHEAT of seeingthe jap airbase go from nothing to having air units will be plenty of time to scrambe either a bombard tf or air bombard or both in latter 44 when Kamikazis show up....

I do agree that taking Palue is better than not taking it if the enemy has few troops, but in my pbem Zeta16 has LOTS there, so see ya and we are off to Indonesia and SRA in later 43 early 44, being careful to not activate the 15 sea hex kami rule.. I HATE that rule btw, should be a set date imo...


Japanese used kamikazes once their situation was desesperate. In WITP this will probably happen faster than in RL.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 24
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/23/2005 7:10:38 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I meant a hard date as in .."on june 12 44 they activate etc" I feel penalized as the allies for being agressive by this rule, and you compared me to RON?

(in reply to tsimmonds)
Post #: 25
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/23/2005 7:18:13 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		No, actually, I was saying he might find it reasonable, where you do not. This is not a comparison, rather it is a contrast. Draw your own conclusions.

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Post #: 26
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/23/2005 7:21:30 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		OUCH! and a good belly laugh

< Message edited by freeboy -- 2/24/2005 1:21:43 AM >

(in reply to tsimmonds)
Post #: 27
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/23/2005 7:36:13 PM   
madmickey

 

Posts: 1336
Joined: 2/11/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline 		If you bypass Palau it would be hard to by-pass southern Philippine if you were going to invade Northern Philippine.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 28
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/23/2005 7:52:04 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I will not by pass southern Philipines or Borneo... I can tak all the way to Batavia without activating the dreaded Kamis

(in reply to madmickey)
Post #: 29
RE: Invade Palau or Bypass - 2/23/2005 10:57:37 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi So you have alrready reached 1 Jan 1944? If you take Iwo Jima on 1 Jan 1943 you don't trigger Kamikazes

(seems kind of silly to avoid them since they kill themselves. Just put up CAP)
By waiting you are allowing them to train for normal missions.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 2/23/2005 3:59:35 PM >

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 30
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