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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Resources that provide supply Page: [1]
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Resources that provide supply - 3/24/2005 6:34:42 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		I have a question on Resources, and they way in which they produce supplies. Is this realistic? If you have a tin mine or a rubber plantation, which I think is an example of what some of the resources are, would that really produce MILITARY supplies? Certainly, none of those resource centers would produce bombs, bullets, radios, etc. About the only military resource that might be in the "Field" is food. But Palembang, for example, gets extra supplies every turn from the resources in that hex.

Does anyone else find this to be unrealistic?
Post #: 1
RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/24/2005 6:50:57 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
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From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		Recently beaten to death here.

I think the CHS guys are addressing this in their eagerly-awaited mod.

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RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/24/2005 6:59:46 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, A resource center represents all that the areas connected to it provide not just s certain tin mine.
I realize that you can't shoot a fish from a cannon and droping a coconut on an enemy ship will not prove effective but the only way to solve the "supply" question would be to have thousands of specific products produced. The players would sort it out but it would take a lot more time and effort and not change operations all that much.
Then we would require dozens of pages to review just what was where.

"Lets see I have 5 inch ammo at Davao at and long lances at Menado and rations at Kendari. " As long as the result is the player needs to send the shipping in enough load points it works out.

The supply at resource centers aids the Allied player in combat early on.
There are no resources or supply produced in the Central Pacific and the SRA will see little combat after mid 1942. (By this I mean the Japanese player in order to use this supply will have to load it and transport it and by doing this he shows he could move what is produced no matter how we label it or track it. Resource/supply are not produced when enemy units in hex. I actually think we make it too easy to target this supply production by tieing it to resource production.

Take China for example The resource might be from a mine or plantation but the supply generated by these centers is actually the harvest of rice fields in surrounding area or out put of small factories producing goods and yet it can be bombed as a single target. I rationize this as the rice (supply) is not being produced in the hex but gathered and once gathered it is being targeted (although I can't see how blowing up a storage bin full of rice would stop it's being grown)

I don't target Chinese resource centers when I am Japan because I see them more as collection points rather then production points.
As Allied player I only target oil centers and heavy industry for the same reasons.



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RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/24/2005 7:02:55 PM   
Q-Ball


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From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Good points, another question: As Japan, how many resource points do you need to get back to Japan to keep the factories going? It seems like you probably don't need all the resources generated on the map, and it's a secondary priority to Oil. Thoughts?

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RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/24/2005 7:14:10 PM   
mogami


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Status: offline 		Hi, There are more then enough resource and oil on map provided they are taken undamaged or have been repaired.
You need enough to run the heavy industry.
As long as Japan
1. Holds undamaged resource/oil centers
2. Is able to transport it to heavy industry

Production of supply/fuel/replacements/new items will continue.

Either one (resource or oil) can be the target of the Allies however it is not the limited amount of oil that attracts it as the target of choice but the limited number of tankers compared to AK. It is nearly impossible to sink enough AK to stop resource transport but Japan only has around 1 tanker for every 5 AK.
Heavy industry requires both. So a Japan with 1,000,000 resource in Home Islands but no oil will not produce.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 3/24/2005 7:18:54 PM >

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RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/25/2005 4:08:21 PM   
Sonny

 

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Status: offline 		While on the subject. If Japan captures a supply production center (Lanchow) why do thay not get the production?

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RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/25/2005 4:19:37 PM   
Grotius


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quote:

If Japan captures a supply production center (Lanchow) why do thay not get the production?
Hmm, I thought the answer in that particular case might have something to do with Soviet supply of China. I thought there was a rule providing for a supply line from Siberia to parts of China, but now I can't find it in the manual.

As for your more general question, I dunno.

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Post #: 7
RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/25/2005 5:10:19 PM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		The supply generated at certain places (Karachi, West Coast, China) is supposed to be from friendly sources. (GB ships supply to Karachi, East Coast ships supply to West Coast, and I'm not sure about China).

The reasoning on why Japan doesn't get the benefit when capturing one of these bases is that the friendly source would stop sending supply, if the base was occupied.

I've got two guesses on China's situation:
1: The designers realized that Japan could stop all supply production in China by just bombing the resource centers, so added indestructible supply at a few bases.
2: the supply generated in China comes from Russia or the local Chinese population.

Either way, I'm happy with their choice. It is far to easy for Japan to completely starve out Chinese forces.

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RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/25/2005 6:48:30 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

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Free supply is simulating supply created out of the map and arriving there. Karachi, United States base, Irtusk are examples. Chinese bases (Chungking, Sining and Lanchow (sp?)) simulate supplies coming respectively via the Burma Road and from the Soviet Union.

Mogami, I disagree that the supply generation in ressource centers is not a problem because SRA will become quiet after mid 1942. If you play mainly in Pacific, WITP is realistic. But the fact that thousand of supplies points are generated each day in SRA (or in captured India or Australia) made operations in this area far much easier so much PBEM are very active there. And that was impossible (or very difficult) in RL.
On the other hand, the uber unhistorical B-17 fleet will eventually destroy all ressource centers in range, so "solving the problem".

WITP is by far the best wargame I ever played but I consider it less and less as a WWII simulation.

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RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/25/2005 6:50:24 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Either way, I'm happy with their choice. It is far to easy for Japan to completely starve out Chinese forces.


CHinese forces were starved for most of the war. What is far too easy for Japan is to supply its own forces in China. They also starve for most of the war.

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RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/25/2005 7:08:47 PM   
String


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Good points, another question: As Japan, how many resource points do you need to get back to Japan to keep the factories going? It seems like you probably don't need all the resources generated on the map, and it's a secondary priority to Oil. Thoughts?



It's 3rd of september 1942 in my scenario #13 PBEM and I did a survey of my industry

My home islands have 9119 HI points and 261 damaged HI points ( I set about 300 HI points to expand somewhere in the beginning of august) Home islands have 6500 resource centers which produce 8125 resource points per day. Which leaves about a 1000 resource points short per day. Home islands have 200 oil centers which produce 1200 oil per day, which leaves about 8000 oil short per day. This totals 240000 oil per month, which can be brought in by fifteen 16000 capacity tankers. 240000 oil per month is provided by approx 1350 Oil centers.

Formosa with 480 HI is also short 70 resource points and 180 oil points per day.

China/Manchukuo/Korea/Indo-China/Thailand/Malaya which have 4565 HI points alltogether produce about 5500 resource points in excess, and are short about 1000 oil points without burmese production and 400 short with burmese production. I'm not sure if burmese oil gets transported overland.

China situation is quite different from scenario start however as I have captured most of china and only Chungking Yunan and Chengtu remain in allied hands. Many captured HI points and Resources have been damaged or destroyed, so it may (and probably will) be different in your scenario.. however it is very likely that you'll still need additional Oil.

Edit: It should also be noted that any serious expansion of aircraft, engine, armament and veichle factories WILL leave you short of HI points, enough oil and resources or not. Naval and merchant yards also will fall into this category. Engine factory average daily HI consumption is number of factories times 18 divided by 30.. 1000 engine factories require 600 HI per day AVERAGE to function.

Aircraft factories depend on number of engines used, times 18 divided by 30 for single and times 36 divided by 30 four double engined average... it will be around 1500 HI for the average japanese industry. Now armament and veichle factories will be much heavier in HI consumption. Multiply them by 6. So my expanded veichle and armament production uses almost 6000 HI points per day. Even worse are naval and merchant ship yards.. they use three per point but as they are very numerous they use 6522 HI points at the scenario starting level.. expand them and you'll use even more.

Also by now i've captured 819 manpower points. They consume 1638 resources per day to produce manpower.



< Message edited by String -- 3/25/2005 7:22:05 PM >

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RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/26/2005 4:06:45 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
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Status: offline 		Hi, If we ever got down and dirty in deciding what supply was and where it came from I bet there would be more supply producing places rather then fewer.
The DEI contains a lot of people and I don't recall hearing that they starved during WW2.
I'm pretty sure Japan did not ship supply to other populations.

Since supply in WITP is what can be used by military forces with no consideration at all for the requirments of civilains I'll concede not every thing produced would be convertd into WITP supply. However if we were to consider only the supply that Japanese military units consumed in the war that had an origin outside the Home Islands I think we would discover that more tonnage came from occupied areas then was shipped out of Home Islands. (I mean the Home Islands consumed more then it shipped in what we call supply in WITP compared to what we call resource.)
Of course if we broke it down we would find the Home Islands shipping ammo and consuming food stuffs. This means that in WITP terms we would have the Home Islands supplying the Central Pacific and the DEI shipping to all points.

OH my, Thats what happens in WITP now?

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RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/26/2005 6:08:51 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
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Status: offline 		OK someone explain this to me. Every thread I read about someone asking about expanding industry is met by a barrage of "Japs run out of supply in early 42" yet every thread I read about resource areas generating supplies is met by "this is so unrealistic", Japs get supplies for this blah blah blah.

Historically the Japs supply problems didnt really begin to surface until sometime in '43, sooooooooo, it seems to me that not only are the supplies generated at the resource centers justified, but actually not enough even as is.

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 3/26/2005 6:09:14 AM >

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RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/26/2005 11:34:26 AM   
String


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

OK someone explain this to me. Every thread I read about someone asking about expanding industry is met by a barrage of "Japs run out of supply in early 42" yet every thread I read about resource areas generating supplies is met by "this is so unrealistic", Japs get supplies for this blah blah blah.

Historically the Japs supply problems didnt really begin to surface until sometime in '43, sooooooooo, it seems to me that not only are the supplies generated at the resource centers justified, but actually not enough even as is.



What they mean about running out is that japanese home islands have a stockpile of resources and oil that will last for 6 months. After that, when the 6 months is over and no additional resources or oil are transported in the HI on the islands can only operate with locally produced resources and oil... and as the home islands only produce 1200 oil per day it means that the original 8k+ HI is reduced to only 1200 HI operating. Which means that most of your factories will shut down due to the lack of HI.


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Post #: 14
RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/26/2005 3:58:09 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		HI, Again we are mixing facts in our history.
Japan had a 2 year stockpile for industry
Japan had 6 months stockpile for Airforces
Japan had 18 month stockpile for Navy.

2 years is not very long when you are thinking about production schedules.


It seems to have been converted over time to "Japan had a 6 month supply" when in fact it depends on what your talking about and rate of consumption.
All the above times are for 1941 rate of use. Rate of use increased after Dec 7 1941 however I don't think in any place other then aviation gas was Japan hurting prior to 1944.
Often she did not have a large surplus where it mattered but that was often a result of the transport system not unavaiablity of material. (IJN Fuel reserves in Home Islands below a certain level resulting in cancelled operations. However Empire wide fuel was available had it been collected and shipped where needed)


And if Japan has a 2 year stockpile for production but the player does a major expansion right away the stockpile will be used sooner.


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RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/26/2005 8:03:54 PM   
esteban


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Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		What Mogami said about how he doesn't bomb resource centers in PBEM games intrigues me. Frankly, you can knock China out of the war relatively quickly by bombing her resource centers until her units are all starving. This seems kind of cheesey to me.

Would people like the ability to destroy/damage resource centers removed from the game?

(except as a consequence of capturing the centers, reflecting controlled demolitions, political opposition to the conquering power, and the fleeing of the staff/populations who were working the industries the resource center represents)


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RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/26/2005 8:27:29 PM   
mogami


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From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Well I have a rather simple view of Chinese supply.
I think every hex in China occupied by a Chinese unit should provide basic supply.
I think all adjacent hexes not occupied by a Japanese unit should provide supply.
I think all hexes occupied by a Japanese unit should provide supply howeve in the case of Japan empty hexes would not provide supply.
Here I am not refering to combat supply just the basic supply.
In other words a Japanese unit with a supply line would have it's basic needs met and would only consume supply for combat. However Japanese units would require supply line before being granted the basic supply.
Chinese units would only require supply lines for combat supply. (You could never cut off a Chinese unit from basic supply)
And this basic supply cannot be bombed. Supply generated on map would therefore represent only combat supply. And could be bombed except for the supply represented as coming over transport system from outside China. (Here the lines would have to be cut to stop supply )

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Post #: 17
RE: Resources that provide supply - 3/26/2005 10:26:57 PM   
Sonny

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent


..............................

Chinese bases (Chungking, Sining and Lanchow (sp?)) simulate supplies coming respectively via the Burma Road and from the Soviet Union.

.......................



I have all those roads blocked - supply cannot get through.

Didn't expect to get the supply but thought I'd ask to see what answers were out there.

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to AmiralLaurent)
Post #: 18
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