Why are Jap tanks such crap

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Why are Jap tanks such crap

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Discontinued Games] >> Gary Grigsby's World at War >> The War Room >> Why are Jap tanks such crap

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Why are Jap tanks such crap - 3/26/2006 2:20:52 AM

Zooey72

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/10/2005
Status: offline

I have gotten the Jap tanks to 11/11 but when they go up against Russian tanks they get massacred even though the Russians were at 9/9. I saw that part of there defense is inherently bad, but is there NO way of overcoming that? Are Jap tanks just not a real possibility?

I would also like to know why their bombers do not take as long as everyone else's to produce. Historicaly I understand the greater Range the Jap air units have... but their Industry was not "geared" for Bomber production.

Post #: 1

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 3/26/2006 3:49:22 AM

Black Mamba 1942

Posts: 510
Joined: 12/7/2005
Status: offline

Japanese tanks are crap because the were.

Even the Italians had better tanks than the Japanese.

(in reply to Zooey72)

Post #: 2

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 3/27/2006 3:26:53 AM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

If you have 11 land attack and 11 evasion tanks going up against 9 land attack and 9 eveasion Russian tanks, you are rolling 10 dice (11-1 armor) to try to roll 27 while they are rolling 9 dice to try to hit 33. You should do fine as you have a 94% chance to hit and they have a 42% chance to hit.

The Japanese heavy bombers are cheaper to produce because they do not have armor and we felt they needed to be cheaper to make them more available to the Japanese player.

(in reply to Zooey72)

Post #: 3

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 3/27/2006 8:46:04 AM

JanSorensen

Posts: 3684
Joined: 5/2/2005
From: Aalborg, Denmark
Status: offline

Joel,

The Japanese armor units only has a durability of 2, so the Russians will have a 91% chance at scoring a hit with their 9/9 armor as well (I believe you looked at 9 dice vs 33 defense where you should look at 8 dice vs 22 defense)

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 4

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 3/27/2006 3:57:28 PM

boka98

Posts: 13
Joined: 12/15/2005
Status: offline

IMO the problem with the Japanese armor in this game is the lower durability value.
Yes, the Japanes had very bad tanks during WWII - but they tried to make up to this mistake at the end of the war.
In spite of that none of their heavier prototypes saw action during the war Japan SHOULD have a possibility to
pursue heavier tanks. With the lower durability rating this simply isn't an option which a find a shame.

Insted of the low durability rating the Japanese tanks could start with lower attack and defend values,
making them weaker at the beginning of the game but still leaving a possibility for better tanks through research.

(in reply to JanSorensen)

Post #: 5

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 3/28/2006 1:10:14 AM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

My mistake. Yes, we sure did make the Japanese tanks very weak. I forgot just how weak.

(in reply to boka98)

Post #: 6

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 3/28/2006 6:41:02 AM

Lebatron

Posts: 2166
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: boka98

IMO the problem with the Japanese armor in this game is the lower durability value.
Yes, the Japanes had very bad tanks during WWII - but they tried to make up to this mistake at the end of the war.
In spite of that none of their heavier prototypes saw action during the war Japan SHOULD have a possibility to
pursue heavier tanks. With the lower durability rating this simply isn't an option which a find a shame.

Insted of the low durability rating the Japanese tanks could start with lower attack and defend values,
making them weaker at the beginning of the game but still leaving a possibility for better tanks through research.

In my mod Franco's Alliance, I did change the Jap tank to a 3 dura.
Instead of it being 7 evasion x 2 dura= 14 def
I made it 5 evasion x 3 dura= 15 def

In the end the Jap tanks get a 1 point boost which won't make much of a difference, but at least they get the same dura as all the other nationalities just for consistency sake.
I understand the original reason to make it 7 x 2, but it was unecessary. You see by making it 7x2 to get an oproximate defense of 15 you are placing the evasion at a higher level so that the world standard will place greater cost on upgrading the evasion stat. This was intentional so that the Jap player would be discouraged from making strong tanks, just to keep historical flavor. Why I'm saying it was unecessary to do so is that even at a dura of 3 it's still a very poor choice to invest in tank research. So when I made the decision to put Jap tanks at 5 evasion x 3 dura I know it wasn't going to break anything. In fact, I have yet to see any of my opponents ever invest in tank research even when I made it much cheaper to ungrade the evasion stat. It's just not a very sound place to invest your research.

Zooey,
You should instead place research into making your infantry better. If your playing a human opponent your going to want to increase your ASW too. But keep in mind that Japan can't spend to much on research. It's best to make lots of supply to get all them resources repaired. After that, spend most of your production on units and just enough supply to keep your forces flexible.

(in reply to boka98)

Post #: 7

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 3/28/2006 1:26:29 PM

boka98

Posts: 13
Joined: 12/15/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lebatron
In my mod Franco's Alliance, I did change the Jap tank to a 3 dura.
Instead of it being 7 evasion x 2 dura= 14 def
I made it 5 evasion x 3 dura= 15 def

In the end the Jap tanks get a 1 point boost which won't make much of a difference, but at least they get the same dura as all the other nationalities just for consistency sake.
I understand the original reason to make it 7 x 2, but it was unecessary. You see by making it 7x2 to get an oproximate defense of 15 you are placing the evasion at a higher level so that the world standard will place greater cost on upgrading the evasion stat. This was intentional so that the Jap player would be discouraged from making strong tanks, just to keep historical flavor. Why I'm saying it was unecessary to do so is that even at a dura of 3 it's still a very poor choice to invest in tank research. So when I made the decision to put Jap tanks at 5 evasion x 3 dura I know it wasn't going to break anything. In fact, I have yet to see any of my opponents ever invest in tank research even when I made it much cheaper to ungrade the evasion stat. It's just not a very sound place to invest your research.

A perfect solution

(in reply to Lebatron)

Post #: 8

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 3/28/2006 7:19:18 PM

worr

Posts: 901
Joined: 2/7/2001
Status: offline

Where do you find durabilty ratings?

(in reply to boka98)

Post #: 9

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 3/30/2006 8:29:17 PM

elhior

Posts: 32
Joined: 2/4/2006
Status: offline

You'll find all the units' stats (uncluding durability) in the file corresponding to the senario you're playing. E.g. if you're playing the 1940 senario, you want to check the "unitdata40" file, if you're playing the 1943 senario, you edit the "unitdata43" file, etc. These files are on the C:\Matrix Games\Gary Grigsby's World At War\dat folder.

(in reply to worr)

Post #: 10

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 3/31/2006 5:20:09 PM

worr

Posts: 901
Joined: 2/7/2001
Status: offline

Hard to sort through this, but looks like durability and evade are the only variables?

UNIT,MECHANIZED,PLAYER_GER
UNITDATA,TD_TYPE,2,TD_AA,3,TD_SA,0,TD_UA,0,TD_LA,8,TD_TORP,0
UNITDATA,TD_SPEED,2,TD_RANGE,1,TD_EVADE,7,TD_ARMOR,1,TD_DURAB,3
UNITDATA,TD_CAP,10,TD_AMPHIB,0,TD_COST,4,TD_CLASS,2,TD_SUP_USE,1
UNITDATA,TD_FUEL_USE,1

UNIT,MECHANIZED,PLAYER_JAP
UNITDATA,TD_TYPE,2,TD_AA,3,TD_SA,0,TD_UA,0,TD_LA,7,TD_TORP,0
UNITDATA,TD_SPEED,2,TD_RANGE,1,TD_EVADE,7,TD_ARMOR,1,TD_DURAB,2
UNITDATA,TD_CAP,10,TD_AMPHIB,0,TD_COST,4,TD_CLASS,2,TD_SUP_USE,1
UNITDATA,TD_FUEL_USE,1

UNIT,MECHANIZED,PLAYER_SOV
UNITDATA,TD_TYPE,2,TD_AA,3,TD_SA,0,TD_UA,0,TD_LA,6,TD_TORP,0
UNITDATA,TD_SPEED,2,TD_RANGE,1,TD_EVADE,8,TD_ARMOR,1,TD_DURAB,3
UNITDATA,TD_CAP,10,TD_AMPHIB,0,TD_COST,4,TD_CLASS,2,TD_SUP_USE,1
UNITDATA,TD_FUEL_USE,1

UNIT,MECHANIZED,PLAYER_UN
UNITDATA,TD_TYPE,2,TD_AA,3,TD_SA,0,TD_UA,0,TD_LA,7,TD_TORP,0
UNITDATA,TD_SPEED,2,TD_RANGE,1,TD_EVADE,7,TD_ARMOR,1,TD_DURAB,3
UNITDATA,TD_CAP,10,TD_AMPHIB,0,TD_COST,4,TD_CLASS,2,TD_SUP_USE,1
UNITDATA,TD_FUEL_USE,1

(in reply to elhior)

Post #: 11

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 3/31/2006 6:56:14 PM

Lebatron

Posts: 2166
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline

Durability and evade aren't the only variables you can change. Look again. You can change AA from 3 to X if you wish, you can change armor from 1 to X, you can even change the cost from 4 to X. Basically everywhere you see a number it can be modified. Of coarse some numbers you wouldn't want to change. Like giving a torpedo value to tanks for instance.

(in reply to worr)

Post #: 12

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 3/31/2006 8:04:49 PM

Uncle_Joe

Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Of coarse some numbers you wouldn't want to change. Like giving a torpedo value to tanks for instance.

Hey now, I'm sure it crossed either Hitler's mind or that of the Japanese high command at least one! ;)

_____________________________

(in reply to Lebatron)

Post #: 13

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 5/2/2006 7:58:23 AM

LouieDee

Posts: 8
Joined: 4/11/2006
Status: offline

Japan tanks were NOT that bad. After their beatings against the Russians tank which were probable the best in 38 and 39, the Imperial Japanese Army IJA upgraded their medium Chi-Ha tank to a Shinto Chi-Ha 25mm of armor and a useful 47 mm high velocity gun, these tanks came out in late 41 and were used in the Philippines against the US�s light tanks 25mm of armor and a useful 37 mm high velocity gun. This is at the same time the Germans are just getting a few upgunned MK III 50mm ( some with 70 mm) armor and a long 50 mm gun, the lion�s share (95%) of Germany�s anti-tank tanks the MK III at this time have 37 mm of armor and a short near useless 50mm gun. So upto mid 42, Japan�s tanks are about equal to Germany�s tanks, about equal to the US light tank, about equal to the Italian M41 but nobody can touch Russian KV1 or T-34. I should note that many Japan tanks had a radio something that was truly the most important thing to have in a tank but get no glory. I also believe the Shinto Chi-Ha had a 3 man turret, another significant design that gets no glory, as well as a diesel engine like the Russian tanks. The Shinto Chi Ha�s replacement is designed and built the Type 1, an all welded hull 37mm armor, 47 mm high velocity gun (same turrent as the Shinto Chi Ha), something like 2000 tanks of all types produced mostly smaller tanks.

Now 42 comes and IJA tank design goes to zero, some OK SelfPropelled guns are developed. Japan is in a naval war and like the US they see little usefulness in tanks in the jungle, but it would come out tanks were VERY useful if not key, especially US tanks vs the lack of IJA shape charge weapons of any kind. See jungle warefare is bad for tanks cause any bush can hide a bazooka, well the IJA has no bazookas. So nothing can stop the tank short of directly holding satchel charges on the tank body. IFF you so happen to have such a charge.

43, the IJA has a Type 3 this is a 50mm armor 75mm gun tank, about equal to the Sherman so at this point the IJA is about 6 months to 1 year behind the US and even further behind the Russians and Germans. But once again this has a 3 man turret and many with radio and all with diesel engines, something that puts this more toward the top as a useful tank, the Russians are still stuck on 2 man turret and most with no radio. All welded design.

44m the IJA has a Type 3 this is a 50mm armor high velocity 75mm gun tank, bigger then a Sherman and the gun about equal to the 76.2 with HVAP ammo, really able to deal with any medium tank at any range, and take on an Allied heavy tank at sub 1000 m, armor too weak to keep anything out, so this is more like a Sherman Firefly. Only 6 produced, not because Japan could NOT make a whole lot more, just that it needed other things like ASW.

45, the IJN has a Type 4 this is a 75mm armor very high velocity 75 mm gun tank. This tank is about the size and punching power of a Panther. Only one made but once again not that Japan could not make more, just had no resource to do so. Tank could also mount an 88mm gun.

So real deal tank design such as all welded construction, diesel engines, 3 man turret, and a radio puts Japan into the could produce a tank capable of fighting the allies, but no resources or incentive to do so. Clearly if Japan chose a land war with the Russians they would have contributed a whole lot more resources to tank design and building. The IJA also had a very nice prototype TD like the Hetzer, and many SP tanks like the Madder (little armor but a useful 75mm gun on a protected mount), also many mobile HE designs were built.

To sum it up tank production went from 2000+ units to near zero for the big tanks and about 250 / a year for the Type 1 upto 43, because Japan was fighting an air / navy war / sub war, but if she was in a ground pounder she could have easily upped production and size of the tank. Baby tank production was at least 600 units thu 1943 as these were useful in China.

< Message edited by LouieDee -- 5/10/2006 5:02:48 AM >

(in reply to boka98)

Post #: 14

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 6/24/2006 5:27:48 PM

Garoad

Posts: 7
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline

So...when are Japanese tank stats going to be fixed?

(in reply to LouieDee)

Post #: 15

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 7/7/2006 3:18:00 PM

Krisanie

Posts: 4
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

Very interesting! Sooo....did they use the tanks in Manchuria? I ask this because I like to sweep the Eastern Plains with tanks, but have noticed that they act like they are made of tissue paper.
You mention the Sheman &the Firefly, both of which were about as dangerous to the crew as they were to the enemy. Thin armor, high profile, gasoline fed, poor gunnary. Does the WOW American & British tanks reflect this?

(in reply to Garoad)

Post #: 16

RE: Why are Jap tanks such crap - 7/7/2006 4:21:38 PM

JanSorensen

Posts: 3684
Joined: 5/2/2005
From: Aalborg, Denmark
Status: offline

You can just mod the data files yourself if you wish to play with stronger Japanese tanks. So there is no need to ask for a "fix" thats unlikely to happen.

(in reply to Krisanie)

Post #: 17