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Warning about Game Mechanics - 4/4/2006 7:19:32 AM   
joliverlay

 

Posts: 635
Joined: 1/28/2003
Status: offline 		I am absolutely livid about the way the game works.

Here is the situation. I'm playing a Nik mod with reduced air to air losses against an expert. I've been trying to get my score up from 2,500 (ME) to 15,000 (JAP) to less than 1:4 (autovictory) after my partial missmanagement of land forces in China and Burma. I held back a very large force near Calcutta expecting an invasion of India, I even moved forces from USA and Australia to counter the expected invasion. In the first round I bottled up 90,000 troups in Diamond Harbor. In the second round another 70,000 landed at the nearby port (near Burma). I responded with 4 taskforces. While I could not stop the Japanese from overrunning a level 6 entrenched Indian Division on their frist try, I had no idea my fleets off shore would scuttle after combat because the base fell. The combat results are given below. After the conclusion of combat and the fall of the bases, most of the RN scuttled there ships at sea to celebrate their naval victory.

I offered to continue the game to 45 or surrender. What would you do. WHY ON EARTH WOULD SHIPS AT SEA IN A TF SCUTTLE BECAUSE A BASE IN THEIR HEX SURRENDERS???

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/26/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Chandpur at 30,25


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
C.XI-W: 3 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Shell hits 8, on fire
BB Haruna, Shell hits 9, on fire
CA Nachi
CA Ashigara, Shell hits 2
CA Mogami, Shell hits 2
CA Kumano
CL Sendai, Shell hits 1
CL Jintsu, Shell hits 1
DD Hatsukaze, Shell hits 1
DD Hayashio, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Amatsukaze, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Oshio, Shell hits 1
DD Arashio
DD Natsugumo
DD Yamagumo
DD Akatsuki
DD Shinonome
DD Usugumo, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Hatsuyuki, Shell hits 1
DD Uranami
DD Amagiri
DD Kari
DD Kiji

Allied Ships
BB Ramilles, Shell hits 13, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
BB Resolution, Shell hits 15, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CL De Ruyter, Shell hits 15, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Enterprise, Shell hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
CLAA Van Heemskerck, Shell hits 5, on fire
DD Alden
DD John D. Edwards, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Nizam, Shell hits 1
DD Norman
DD Paladin, Shell hits 30, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Chandpur at 30,25

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, on fire
BB Haruna, on fire
CA Nachi
CA Ashigara
CA Mogami
CA Kumano
CL Sendai
CL Jintsu, Shell hits 1
DD Hatsukaze
DD Hayashio, on fire
DD Amatsukaze, on fire
DD Oshio
DD Arashio
DD Natsugumo
DD Yamagumo, Shell hits 1
DD Akatsuki
DD Shinonome
DD Usugumo, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Hatsuyuki
DD Uranami
DD Amagiri
DD Kari
DD Kiji

Allied Ships
CL Emerald
CL Danae
CL Mauritius
CL Glasgow, Shell hits 11, on fire
DD Whipple
DD Vampire, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Vendetta
DD Tjerk Hiddes
DD Decoy, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Fortune

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Chandpur at 30,25

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Shell hits 4, on fire
BB Haruna, Shell hits 1, on fire
CA Nachi
CA Ashigara
CA Mogami
CA Kumano
CL Sendai
CL Jintsu, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Hatsukaze
DD Hayashio, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Amatsukaze, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Oshio
DD Arashio
DD Natsugumo
DD Yamagumo
DD Akatsuki
DD Shinonome
DD Usugumo, on fire
DD Hatsuyuki
DD Uranami
DD Amagiri
DD Kari
DD Kiji

Allied Ships
BC Repulse, Shell hits 2
CA Dorsetshire, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Cornwall, Shell hits 1
CA Exeter, Shell hits 1
CL Marblehead
CL Boise, Shell hits 1
DD Kortenaer
DD Piet Hein
DD Van Ghent

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Chandpur at 30,25

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Shell hits 9, on fire, heavy damage
BB Haruna, Shell hits 3, on fire
CA Nachi
CA Ashigara, Shell hits 3
CA Mogami, Shell hits 3
CA Kumano
CL Sendai
CL Jintsu, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Hatsukaze
DD Hayashio, on fire, heavy damage
DD Oshio
DD Arashio, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Natsugumo
DD Yamagumo
DD Akatsuki
DD Shinonome
DD Usugumo, on fire
DD Hatsuyuki
DD Uranami
DD Amagiri
DD Kari
DD Kiji

Allied Ships
DD Foxhound
DD Griffin
DD Hotspur, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
DD Isis, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Jupiter, Shell hits 11, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Napier, Shell hits 24, and is sunk
DD Nestor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kweilin , at 44,38

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 47
Ki-49 Helen x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21 Sally: 3 damaged
Ki-49 Helen: 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
6 casualties reported

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 20

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
12 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Norfolk Island , at 60,119


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 83


Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 8

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
20 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
13 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
8 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
13 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 9th Chinese Corps, at 43,37

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 7
Ki-51 Sonia x 35

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
13 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
35 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 28,30


Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 36
Wellington III x 23


Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged
Wellington III: 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
DD Shinonome
CA Ashigara
CA Nachi, Bomb hits 1
CA Kumano, Torpedo hits 1
CL Sendai
DD Natsugumo
DD Arashio, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Blenheim IV bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Wellington III launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x Blenheim IV bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Blenheim IV bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Blenheim IV bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Wellington III launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x Blenheim IV bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Blenheim IV bombing at 10000 feet
2 x Blenheim IV bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 10000 feet
2 x Blenheim IV bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Blenheim IV bombing at 10000 feet
2 x Blenheim IV bombing at 10000 feet
2 x Blenheim IV bombing at 5000 feet
2 x Wellington III bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 10000 feet
4 x Blenheim IV bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 29,28


Allied aircraft
Sea Hurricane Ib x 11
Albacore x 22
Swordfish x 10
Hurricane IIb x 4
Blenheim I x 8


Allied aircraft losses
Albacore: 1 damaged
Blenheim I: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Blenheim I bombing at 5000 feet
2 x Blenheim I bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Albacore bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Albacore bombing at 5000 feet
1 x Swordfish bombing at 5000 feet
1 x Swordfish bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Blenheim I bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Albacore bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Albacore bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Albacore bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Albacore bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Swordfish bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Swordfish bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 67,113

Japanese Ships
MSW Noshiro Maru #2
MSW Seki Maru #3
PG Takunan Maru #10
MSW Tama Maru #2
PG Choko Maru #2
PG Edo Maru
PG Heijo Maru
PG Koei Maru
PG Shoei Maru
PG Shosei Maru

Allied Ships
SS Pickerel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 67,113

Japanese Ships
MSW Seki Maru #3
MSW Noshiro Maru #2
PG Takunan Maru #10
MSW Tama Maru #2
PG Choko Maru #2
PG Edo Maru
PG Heijo Maru
PG Koei Maru
PG Shoei Maru
PG Shosei Maru

Allied Ships
SS Pickerel


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Chandpur

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 62545 troops, 647 guns, 17 vehicles

Defending force 10000 troops, 135 guns, 2 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 4

Japanese assault odds: 15 to 1 (fort level 4)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Chandpur base !!!



Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
Catalina I: 3 destroyed
Buffalo I: 16 destroyed
Hurricane IIb: 9 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
860 casualties reported
Guns lost 24
Vehicles lost 6

Allied ground losses:
601 casualties reported
Guns lost 21
Vehicles lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Kweilin

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 108702 troops, 1277 guns, 3 vehicles

Defending force 85422 troops, 227 guns, 0 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
117 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 43,38

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 21605 troops, 247 guns, 7 vehicles

Defending force 18472 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
15 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 51,23

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 9240 troops, 78 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 11310 troops, 42 guns, 0 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Diamond Harbor

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 32988 troops, 417 guns, 317 vehicles

Defending force 77134 troops, 608 guns, 8 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
171 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

END OF TURN RN SHIPS IN HEX SCUTTLE!!!!
Post #: 1
RE: Warning about Game Mechanics - 4/4/2006 7:39:28 AM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline 		It is my best guess that some of the allied surface TF's had Chandpur as "home" base and had auto-disband orders. That is the only thing that I can think of that could produce the mass scuttle.

_____________________________


(in reply to joliverlay)
Post #: 2
RE: Warning about Game Mechanics - 4/4/2006 7:47:48 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		This is a bug that is known about. I think they fixed it in 1.8

(in reply to dpstafford)
Post #: 3
RE: Warning about Game Mechanics - 4/4/2006 8:04:31 AM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

This is a bug that is known about. I think they fixed it in 1.8

You're kidding! What's the bug?

_____________________________


(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 4
RE: Warning about Game Mechanics - 4/4/2006 9:03:46 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

This is a bug that is known about. I think they fixed it in 1.8

You're kidding! What's the bug?


That all friendly ships in the same hex as a base will scuttle when the base is captured, not just those disbanded in the port.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to dpstafford)
Post #: 5
RE: Warning about Game Mechanics - 4/4/2006 9:37:59 AM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel
That all friendly ships in the same hex as a base will scuttle when the base is captured, not just those disbanded in the port.

I have never seen it before, but that is apparently what happened here. In this case, at least two TF's did not scuttle, while apparently 2 others did.

_____________________________


(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 6
RE: Warning about Game Mechanics - 4/4/2006 10:57:00 AM   
Odox

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 3/1/2006
Status: offline 		Absolutely stupefying!!!

(in reply to joliverlay)
Post #: 7
RE: Warning about Game Mechanics - 4/4/2006 2:49:47 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		I've seen this one before (fortunately, have never experienced it).

Be wary of having a TFs home port, as a base that is contested (just in case you lose it). I believe it applies to docked ships, as well as dispbanded. Since TFs will often dock automatically to refuel if it is low, the docked ships can be scutted.

(at least that's how I understnad it)

Maybe ask for a rerun of the turn. The ONLY change that you can make is to re-assign the home port. That would at least back-out the scuttle issue.

Be advised that the turn -will- be different tho. You'll likely still have the naval battle, but just be advised that the outcome can be different (not a replay bug by the way, since you have changed the turn).

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 4/4/2006 2:50:12 PM >

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to Odox)
Post #: 8
RE: Warning about Game Mechanics - 4/4/2006 4:03:00 PM   
joliverlay

 

Posts: 635
Joined: 1/28/2003
Status: offline 		These ships did not start in the hex in question. All of the four TFs started the turn in Diamond Harbor, fully fueled and armed. On the day of the disaster they sailed three hexes (at full speed) to Chandpur to engage transports and a covering force. There orders were "do not retire". There was a night combat round against the covering force, but the transports were not encountered. The Japanese surface ships withdrew from the hex. After ground combat the two TFs with BBs and CAs scuttled. The fast task forces (Cls, DDs) and a small CV TF nearby remain.

It is possible to continue the game until 45, but only if autovictory conditions are ignored. I cannot recover sufficient points to prevent autovictory. I was down 2500 to 15000 before the turn. Lossing almost 20 ships to suicide is not something I can no recover from points wise. I will eventually engage with the US CVs, but 4 of 5 of them still have f4f3s and the Wasp wont arrive until the end of 42.


(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 9
RE: Warning about Game Mechanics - 4/4/2006 4:10:07 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Brilliant!!! Testing, testing, testing more testing is required.

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to joliverlay)
Post #: 10
RE: Warning about Game Mechanics - 4/4/2006 4:12:57 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford


quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel
That all friendly ships in the same hex as a base will scuttle when the base is captured, not just those disbanded in the port.

I have never seen it before, but that is apparently what happened here. In this case, at least two TF's did not scuttle, while apparently 2 others did.



First time (or one of the first times) it was reported, some guy lost all his CVs scuttled (with all ac and crews)... Everyone kept trying to tell him he had done something wrong... then other people started seeing it.

Curiously, i've never seen/heard it reported by the Japanese side yet (though i will admit i no longer read every post...)

(in reply to dpstafford)
Post #: 11
RE: Warning about Game Mechanics - 4/4/2006 5:37:48 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
quote:

Curiously, i've never seen/heard it reported by the Japanese side yet


Probably because most PBEM games are just now hitting 43 - 44. This only happens when you're sending a fleet to a constested base. Most bases aren't "contested" for Japan (potential of losing) until approaching '43. Even then, Japanese naval assets (in my observation), are more likely to be whittled away slowly than engaged in a mega-battle around a single base where he may sustain heavy damage (either by action or scuttling, it's just not prudent on behalf of Japan).

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 4/4/2006 5:38:01 PM >

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


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Post #: 12
RE: Warning about Game Mechanics - 4/5/2006 3:26:56 AM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1086738&mpage=1&key=􉔒

Had this happen to me a few weeks ago. Real pain but avoidable if you know about it.

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


(in reply to joliverlay)
Post #: 13
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