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Those AA guns are evil!

 
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Those AA guns are evil! - 1/23/2006 4:34:09 AM   
Afrika Korps


Posts: 204
Joined: 7/2/2002
From: Rhode Island
Status: offline 		I have to say, I finally have a real love for those AA guns (after cursing them constinously as the Germans versus the Russians). I especially love those 25mm dual ones the Japanese have (if I let the enemy get close then open up, entire squads are vaporized in a couple of salvos). Good grief, those things are NASTY. Not only does it sound very cool (deep boom boom boom -- heheh) but they really have the ability to reach out and cut troops to ribbons and blast lighter tanks into piles of burning scrap.

Although, I feel a slight cheese factor in this...is this realistic? Using AA guns vs. troops and armor?

The higher the fire control number, the better, correct?

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RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/23/2006 5:15:24 AM   
Einar Fridgeirs

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 1/21/2006
Status: offline 		IMO there is nothing cheesy about using AA guns vs troops and armor. The 88, which was a German AT mainstay in the later years of the war and one of the more famous of it´s kind was originally designed strictly as an AA gun. Did the Afrika Corps feel guilty for lowering the elevation and blasting away at tanks with it? I don´t think so!

So blast away, the Japanese need any advantage they can get considering the overall crappyness of their tanks.


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Post #: 2
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/23/2006 3:03:30 PM   
Puukkoo


Posts: 472
Joined: 7/19/2005
From: Seinäjoki, Finland
Status: offline 		And there are the Jap triple ones too! They're N. A. S. T. Y. !

Yes, I've read somewhere that Brits considered it "unfair" that Germans used the 88's against armor. It is interesting that they used the 88's already in the First World War too. It's kinda old weapon.

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Post #: 3
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/23/2006 3:45:00 PM   
FNG


Posts: 514
Joined: 1/3/2002
From: Devizes, UK
Status: offline 		If you wish to do truly unpleasant things to infantry, the M16 MGMC with it's quad .50s is the perfect tool for the job. The German quad 20mm flak is also entertaining when used in this role.

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Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt.

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Post #: 4
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/23/2006 3:54:17 PM   
Einar Fridgeirs

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 1/21/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puukkoo

Yes, I've read somewhere that Brits considered it "unfair" that Germans used the 88's against armor. It is interesting that they used the 88's already in the First World War too. It's kinda old weapon.


The 88 is probably one of history´s most enduring and effective battlefield weapon, on par with the Colt M1911 .45!

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Post #: 5
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/23/2006 4:59:57 PM   
Puukkoo


Posts: 472
Joined: 7/19/2005
From: Seinäjoki, Finland
Status: offline 		I just thought that the AA-Gun uses explosive ammo that was considered as illegal in the Geneva Code when used against infantry targets.

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Post #: 6
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/23/2006 6:31:11 PM   
Afrika Korps


Posts: 204
Joined: 7/2/2002
From: Rhode Island
Status: offline 		My IJA units don't care about Geneva when in one turn the dual 25mm wipes out an entire squad, two tanks, and reduces another so much that they disperse. These are the best investment I ever made, point-wise.

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RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/23/2006 6:33:37 PM   
Einar Fridgeirs

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 1/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Afrika Korps

My IJA units don't care about Geneva when in one turn the dual 25mm wipes out an entire squad, two tanks, and reduces another so much that they disperse. These are the best investment I ever made, point-wise.


Yeah. It may not be PC to say it, but international conventions were probably the last thing on the mind of Japanese field commanders in the Pacific......

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Post #: 8
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/23/2006 6:45:00 PM   
Afrika Korps


Posts: 204
Joined: 7/2/2002
From: Rhode Island
Status: offline 		Hey, nobody answered by question before, the higher the Fire Control, the better the weapon, correct? The dual 25mm I like so much has a size factor of 1 and a Fire Control of 6, which is why I bought them...high damage, smallest size AA (IJA does not seem to have a size 0 like the Russians do) with a really great range. I like to wait until the enemy gets very close, then open up...especially on units that are moving fast...they get cut to pieces.

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Post #: 9
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/23/2006 9:03:07 PM   
Puukkoo


Posts: 472
Joined: 7/19/2005
From: Seinäjoki, Finland
Status: offline 		Higher fire control is better. At least I bet on that.

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Post #: 10
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/23/2006 11:36:19 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		So, AK, you haven't put your OOBs thru the programmer's convention options? Hmmm...the Japanese 25mm dual & triple AA should actually have a fire control of 3 and range finder of 3. With a FC of 6, it's no wonder they are so deadly.

As for the general rules about using weapons appropriately, it's WAR, man -- there are NO rules. Can you imagine a referee blowing a whistle in the middle of a battle? "Personal foul on the Japanese -- illegal use of AA guns -- move back 1500 yards, repeat opening bombardment".

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Post #: 11
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/24/2006 12:11:52 AM   
Gunter_Viezenz


Posts: 126
Joined: 1/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

So, AK, you haven't put your OOBs thru the programmer's convention options? Hmmm...the Japanese 25mm dual & triple AA should actually have a fire control of 3 and range finder of 3. With a FC of 6, it's no wonder they are so deadly.

As for the general rules about using weapons appropriately, it's WAR, man -- there are NO rules. Can you imagine a referee blowing a whistle in the middle of a battle? "Personal foul on the Japanese -- illegal use of AA guns -- move back 1500 yards, repeat opening bombardment".



Dam that is such a great point. I have used AA guns from the begining of my campaigns and they are deadly against planes also. On one map my german 88s destroyed 1 Hurricane 4 Mosquito's and damaged 1 other hurricane


< Message edited by Gunter_Viezenz -- 1/24/2006 4:59:56 AM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/24/2006 1:32:41 AM   
Afrika Korps


Posts: 204
Joined: 7/2/2002
From: Rhode Island
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

So, AK, you haven't put your OOBs thru the programmer's convention options? Hmmm...the Japanese 25mm dual & triple AA should actually have a fire control of 3 and range finder of 3. With a FC of 6, it's no wonder they are so deadly.

As for the general rules about using weapons appropriately, it's WAR, man -- there are NO rules. Can you imagine a referee blowing a whistle in the middle of a battle? "Personal foul on the Japanese -- illegal use of AA guns -- move back 1500 yards, repeat opening bombardment".


I have not modified my OOBs in any way...let me enjoy my puny victories before they get ripped away by your conventions. Why such a drastic change, because a FC of 6 is simply too high? How does FC affect how the unit performs in combat?

Well, when I spoke about using AAs in combat against troops/armor, I meant in SPWAW, not in real life...lol! I guess the FC of 6 might explain the cheese factor I have been feeling using my new toy.

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Post #: 13
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/24/2006 3:50:45 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		The conventions are actually the original numbers present in the game, before modification by past teams who were not completely aware of what the program was looking for.

For dual, triple, and quad guns, you will not be disappointed in their performance with the programmer conventions applied. I am murdering infantry with my M16 MGMC, and Quad .50 AA/Quad 20mm guns!


Goblin

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Post #: 14
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/24/2006 4:17:08 AM   
IBTyrone


Posts: 432
Joined: 7/29/2003
From: Kentucky, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin
The conventions are actually the original numbers present in the game, before modification by past teams who were not completely aware of what the program was looking for.


*Finally!* An english translation of the "programmers conventions!" Why don't they just say that?

quote:


For dual, triple, and quad guns, you will not be disappointed in their performance with the programmer conventions applied. I am murdering infantry with my M16 MGMC, and Quad .50 AA/Quad 20mm guns!


The M16 MGMC has always been da bomb when it comes to using them on infantry. I'm glad to see their performance is not reduced with the programmer conventions applied. I've selected them in long campaigns instead of tanks solely because of their effectiveness against infantry.

(in reply to Goblin)
Post #: 15
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/24/2006 7:41:16 AM   
FlashfyreSP


Posts: 1193
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: Combat Information Center
Status: offline 		Afrika Korps

According to the manual (which has been known to be wrong) the game applies a modifier to the unit's To Hit chance of 5xFC (or it may be 3xFC, depending on which source). So, those FC 6 AA guns are getting a +30 (or +18) to their To Hit chance for every shot.

Personally, I've always felt that the 5xFC modifier is the actual one.

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Post #: 16
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/24/2006 9:01:08 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		I also love that German halftrack SPAA (SdKfz 251/21) with the triple MG151/15 MG's. Chews through infantry just like the M16, even has the PEN against light vehicle too.


Goblin

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Post #: 17
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/25/2006 12:34:33 AM   
264rifle

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline 		Japanese use of 25mm AA guns does have a bit of a cheese factor.

The Japanese 25mm AA guns were NAVY weapons. They were mounted ashore on a number of Pacific islands. Also some navy deck guns of up to 5.5in caliber were mounted in shore defences.

The 25mm AA came in single, twin, and triple mounts. The single was mounted on a pedistal like a big machine gun, ie "free swinging". THe twin and triple mounts had geared handwheel elevation and traverse. They also weighed around 3970lb for a triple mount. most 25mm did not have a wheeled mount and for all practical purposses were immobile.

While a perfectly fine weapon to use in a shore landing scenerio or even an "inland" Island scenerio iwould want to see some sources that show these weapons were used by the Army in Manchuria or Southeast Asia.

pointing a gun an army did have at a nonstandard target is one thing but using a gun that the army didn't have in the thearter is a bit strange. Like using 10.5 CM Flak guns in North Africa. The Germans had them but Rommel didn't get any.

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Post #: 18
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/25/2006 12:57:59 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Alot of the game is fantasy, and 'what if'. I agree with your points, 264, but we should not criticize players that want to do it. I've done alot of what if stuff myself. 105mm AA gun?! I want one!!



Goblin

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Post #: 19
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/25/2006 2:38:54 AM   
264rifle

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline 		Goblin, He did ask if there was a cheese factor.

I have no problem with what a player chooses to do in a solitare game or what 2 players agree to in a pbem game. What ifs can be a lot of fun. I have a few "what if's" in my own OOB. I just wasn't sure If some peaple knew that the 25mm AA was a "what if" in Manchuria.

And I may be wrong. Just haven't seen a source yet that say the guns were there.

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Post #: 20
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/25/2006 4:15:57 AM   
Warrior


Posts: 1808
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

So, AK, you haven't put your OOBs thru the programmer's convention options?...


I don't agree with all these "programmer's conventions" and such customizing. The game is the game, play it as it comes out of the box - that's my deal, I've been happily doing it for 5 years, and I stick to it.


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Post #: 21
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/25/2006 4:44:19 AM   
Afrika Korps


Posts: 204
Joined: 7/2/2002
From: Rhode Island
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 264rifle

Goblin, He did ask if there was a cheese factor.

I have no problem with what a player chooses to do in a solitare game or what 2 players agree to in a pbem game. What ifs can be a lot of fun. I have a few "what if's" in my own OOB. I just wasn't sure If some peaple knew that the 25mm AA was a "what if" in Manchuria.

And I may be wrong. Just haven't seen a source yet that say the guns were there.


Hmmm...well, I will play out what I have, but generally, I like to try and stay "semi-historical". As I play SPWAW, I spend more and more time reading up on the IJA, and want to be realistic, and less gamey. But, I want to learn to play better and within the scope of the game to give you USMC guys a run for your money. Basically, the IJA needs all the help it can get in this game...

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Post #: 22
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/25/2006 5:50:00 AM   
Afrika Korps


Posts: 204
Joined: 7/2/2002
From: Rhode Island
Status: offline 		The Model 96 25 mm Dual Purpose Anti-Tank/Anti-Aircraft Gun was used both in single, dual and triple mounts...but I need to find out more about it. I do know that IJA had independent AA companies that had various mixes of weapons...I need to hit the library and gather my resources.

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Post #: 23
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/25/2006 12:52:23 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 264rifle

Goblin, He did ask if there was a cheese factor.

I have no problem with what a player chooses to do in a solitare game or what 2 players agree to in a pbem game. What ifs can be a lot of fun. I have a few "what if's" in my own OOB. I just wasn't sure If some peaple knew that the 25mm AA was a "what if" in Manchuria.

And I may be wrong. Just haven't seen a source yet that say the guns were there.


Didn't say you were wrong! Just didn't want some poor newbie sitting at home thinking we were all insulting him for playing his way...

Goblin


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Post #: 24
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/25/2006 12:53:12 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Warrior

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

So, AK, you haven't put your OOBs thru the programmer's convention options?...


I don't agree with all these "programmer's conventions" and such customizing. The game is the game, play it as it comes out of the box - that's my deal, I've been happily doing it for 5 years, and I stick to it.



Ah, but these are the original, out of the box numbers...


Goblin


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Post #: 25
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 1/26/2006 4:55:51 PM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		They may have been a Naval weapon but they where commonly used in the role of beach/ground defence. I did a battle study of Tarawa the island was loaded with dual 25mm and other configurations of AA.

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Post #: 26
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 3/2/2006 6:38:37 PM   
Zardoz

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Essen (Germany)
Status: offline 		hello all togeter...

the story of the English officer blaming the Germany for unfair use of AA guns is good. But the German answer was also good. The German officer saidthat it is unfair to attack with tanks which have an armor not penetrable by PAK *s*

Btw. the 88 was developed after WW I and , therefore, not used in the Great War. Furthermore, the German used beside the 88 also the light FLAK often in the front line. There are some battle report about the tremendous effect of 2 cm Quadruple (do not know how this is written) Flak against Russian human wave attacks in 1941. It was a real bloodbath. In the early stages of the desert war the 2 cm FLAK was also used as an AT weapon with some success against early tanks of the UK troops.

And..the Genevieve Convention did not say anything against this. especially because -may be I mix something - the Convention was settled after WW II. The Haague treaty did not contain detailled regulations about weapons.


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Post #: 27
RE: Those AA guns are evil! - 7/28/2006 4:02:57 PM   
figolin


Posts: 2
Joined: 9/16/2005
Status: offline 		Better late than never some links to illustrate this weapon

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_25mm-60_mg.htm

http://sus3041.web.infoseek.co.jp/contents/gun_db/t96_25aag.htm

< Message edited by figolin -- 7/28/2006 4:07:35 PM >

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