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Idiotic land combat movement - 6/28/2006 10:42:05 PM   
KDonovan


Posts: 1157
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: New Jersey
Status: offline 		In my game with Tom (2 day turns), my LCU decided that 100 paratroopers were too much to handle, and ran around them, when i ordered them to intercept them. Someone explain to me how this happened, cause it happened to me again near Hyperabad, and is causing me a great headache






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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/28/2006 10:48:55 PM   
Oliver Heindorf


Posts: 1911
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From: Hamburg/Deutschland
Status: offline 		heh, in witp there is a F1 sim included, equiping each unit with F1 cars and proper refueling stations so they can race each other towards their targets without clashing each other.

didnt you know that ?




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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/28/2006 11:23:34 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
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From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		It reminds me of that that scene in "The Longest Day" where the column of paratroopers walks past a column of Germans heading the other way, only separated by a low stone wall.  It takes a minute for it to sink in, then...



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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/28/2006 11:26:51 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan

In my game with Tom (2 day turns), my LCU decided that 100 paratroopers were too much to handle, and ran around them, when i ordered them to intercept them. Someone explain to me how this happened, cause it happened to me again near Hyperabad, and is causing me a great headache








OK - which force is yours - and how in The Thread are these guys moving so fast?!

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/28/2006 11:30:22 PM   
KDonovan


Posts: 1157
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: New Jersey
Status: offline 		yeah i also like how the japanese para-troopers are using my rail cars

Sgt - "we need to take control of this rail car so we can move to Lucknow faster"
Conducter - "sorry sir, but i have orders from a japanese captian that he needs this car so he can move to Asenol"
Sgt - "dammit son...this is my train, and i'm..."
Pvt - "excuse me sir, but the conducter is right, according to zone of control rules, the japanese have the right of way"
Sgt - "well in the case, we'll proceed on foot into the nearby country"

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/28/2006 11:31:04 PM   
KDonovan


Posts: 1157
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From: New Jersey
Status: offline 		i'm in the green (the good guys )

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/28/2006 11:34:36 PM   
KDonovan


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quote:

how in The Thread are these guys moving so fast?!


well i can't speak for Toms troops, but mine are givin the same dietary supplements that our finest baseball players use [:D

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/28/2006 11:38:25 PM   
rtrapasso


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Status: offline 		Well, this isn't making sense to me... moving 4 hexes in 2 days - some of it across country... and of course, there is the other stuff (moving around the enemy unit...)

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/28/2006 11:49:49 PM   
dtravel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Well, this isn't making sense to me... moving 4 hexes in 2 days - some of it across country... and of course, there is the other stuff (moving around the enemy unit...)


4 hexes in 4 days. He's playing with 2-day turns.

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 12:01:54 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Well, this isn't making sense to me... moving 4 hexes in 2 days - some of it across country... and of course, there is the other stuff (moving around the enemy unit...)


4 hexes in 4 days. He's playing with 2-day turns.


Unit 1 (at the bottom) appears to have moved 4 hexes from 3-29 to 3-31.

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 12:08:40 AM   
dtravel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Well, this isn't making sense to me... moving 4 hexes in 2 days - some of it across country... and of course, there is the other stuff (moving around the enemy unit...)


4 hexes in 4 days. He's playing with 2-day turns.


Unit 1 (at the bottom) appears to have moved 4 hexes from 3-29 to 3-31.



Three hexes. It probably just continued straight NW along the hex grain with some railroad slingshot effect thrown in. Either way it just supports the original poster's complaint.


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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 12:16:44 AM   
BLUESBOB

 

Posts: 219
Joined: 8/27/2005
From: Fullerton, Ca.
Status: offline 		Everytime something dumb happens in a game I just have two remember two things...it's a game, and anything is possible in war.

Hey, it just reminds me of the Falaise Pocket, and the Germans were able to escape from it. With the width of the games hexes, it looks like your dealing with up to sixty miles between your two forces. The Falaise Gap was only twelve miles wide or so. So, there's plenty of room to squeeze by.

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 12:59:07 AM   
Speedysteve

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan

yeah i also like how the japanese para-troopers are using my rail cars

Sgt - "we need to take control of this rail car so we can move to Lucknow faster"
Conducter - "sorry sir, but i have orders from a japanese captian that he needs this car so he can move to Asenol"
Sgt - "dammit son...this is my train, and i'm..."
Pvt - "excuse me sir, but the conducter is right, according to zone of control rules, the japanese have the right of way"
Sgt - "well in the case, we'll proceed on foot into the nearby country"


LOL


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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 1:22:56 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
Well, this isn't making sense to me... moving 4 hexes in 2 days - some of it across country... and of course, there is the other stuff (moving around the enemy unit...)


4 hexes in 4 days. He's playing with 2-day turns.


Unit 1 (at the bottom) appears to have moved 4 hexes from 3-29 to 3-31.


Three hexes. It probably just continued straight NW along the hex grain with some railroad slingshot effect thrown in. Either way it just supports the original poster's complaint.


i still get 4 hexes - see below:





EDIT - ok - you are saying this guys is moving 1 hex on RR and 2 hexes cross country, which is even more amazing than my proposed movement...

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< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 6/29/2006 1:24:52 AM >

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 1:27:05 AM   
mogami


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From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, land movement traces path same as supply. You can't plot movement through enemy controled hex, You have to plot move from friendly hex into enemy so if you plot more then 1 hex movement it will follow your supply path. The Japanese unit moved 5 hexes in 8 days  RR are also highways so Japanese units moved a little over 1.5mph (oh the insanity)
Units plotted to move more then 1 hex will alter their route if one of the prior plotted hexes changes control.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 6/29/2006 1:30:01 AM >

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 1:48:56 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

The Japanese unit moved 5 hexes in 8 days RR are also highways so Japanese units moved a little over 1.5mph (oh the insanity)


Wasn't questioning the speed of the IJA unit - but the Allied Unit marked #1. Either he moved 180 miles along the RR/Highway AND 60 miles overland or 60 miles on a RR/Highway AND 120 overland in 2 days.

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 3:03:48 AM   
scott64


Posts: 4019
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Didn't you hear, the guys are double timing it to a weinie roast. 





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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 5:05:26 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		This is not about making good war games...this is all about making a profit off the idea. We all get porked as a result.

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 6/29/2006 11:51:50 AM >

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 5:17:07 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, We are not told how far along the Allied unit was in screen shot 1. And what type unit it is (Is it foot or mech)
All Units move 90 miles in 24 hours along highway/rr Infantry moves 10 over clear and armour moves 30 (So a Armour unit could move 150 miles in 3 days 1 hex RR/Highway 2 hexes clear. (armour moves 60 down a road) 210 miles in 3 days)
I'd check to see what the terrain is (not what the map graphic is but what terrian type is assigned)
However the movement appears to be 1 day too fast before you check movement speeds and understand you pay to leave a hex not enter. 2 day turns means there are 4 movement phases in 2 turns.)(so it might not be
PORKED" at all (It unit is infantry then it depends how much movement it required to exit it's starting hex and how far into that hex it moved on day one since it normally would take 3 days to cross the hex)
Unit 1 could have been near the edge of it's hex and moved 90 miles putting it 30 miles inside the clear hex. Moving 30 miles on the 30th it would be where it is shown on the 31st. (units pay to leave hexes not enter) Movement speeds are all listed in manual.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 6/29/2006 5:32:20 AM >

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 3:14:32 PM   
Feinder


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From: Land o' Lakes, FL
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quote:

Well i can't speak for Toms troops, but mine are givin the same dietary supplements that our finest baseball players use.


A largely over-looked comment that bears recognition.



-F-

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 3:17:03 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

quote:

Well i can't speak for Toms troops, but mine are givin the same dietary supplements that our finest baseball players use.


A largely over-looked comment that bears recognition.



-F-



Well, i did snort on reading it, but it hardly consistutes the proper recognition it deserves...

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 3:21:09 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

Movement speeds are all listed in manual.



i haven't been able to find the "slingshot" speeds - what page are they on?

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 3:47:12 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Units pay to leave a hex not to enter. Unlike most games where it is the reverse. (It works out the same in the end) But a unit with 59 movement points towards exiting a RR/Highway hex is going to move 90 miles. (The slingshot) A unit moving into a RR hex pays for the hex it is leaving. (a unit going the other direction will move through the next hex)  wierd but it is in the manual and so should not confuse or suprise anyone.
I think people are not understanding units plot multi hex moves according to supply paths so if there is an enemy controled hex (empty or not) that hex will be plotted around and that is why units move off of roads. To enter an enemy hex you must plot the specific hex.

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 3:54:24 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Units pay to leave a hex not to enter. Unlike most games where it is the reverse. (It works out the same in the end) But a unit with 59 movement points towards exiting a RR/Highway hex is going to move 90 miles. (The slingshot) A unit moving into a RR hex pays for the hex it is leaving. (a unit going the other direction will move through the next hex)  wierd but it is in the manual and so should not confuse or suprise anyone.
I think people are not understanding units plot multi hex moves according to supply paths so if there is an enemy controled hex (empty or not) that hex will be plotted around and that is why units move off of roads. To enter an enemy hex you must plot the specific hex.


Gotcha - however, as has become painfully obvious, this movement system can produce some very strange, counterintuitive results.

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 3:56:05 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Yeah, the land movement system too...

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 3:58:18 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I think the difficult part of WITP movement is units do not always move the same distance. Unlike most games WITP reduces movement due to fatigue.  a unit that begins moving 5 miles per day might only move 1 mile. In board games a player can calculate exactly when a unit or stack will be in place but in WITP they may arrive quite late. 
In WITP you just can't move at your whim you have to wait for the units to rest.  (It can really get annoying when you order a stack to follow and the lead unit is wore out)

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 4:02:24 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I think the difficult part of WITP movement is units do not always move the same distance. Unlike most games WITP reduces movement due to fatigue.  a unit that begins moving 5 miles per day might only move 1 mile. In board games a player can calculate exactly when a unit or stack will be in place but in WITP they may arrive quite late. 
In WITP you just can't move at your whim you have to wait for the units to rest.  (It can really get annoying when you order a stack to follow and the lead unit is wore out)



Yes, and unfortunately, you can not get your troops to rest half-way through a march - i.e. - there is no PAUSE MARCH button. If you pause at 59 miles because some troops are lagging behind and you want them to all enter the enemy held hex at the same time - your movement resets to zero...

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 6:07:50 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
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From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Mog, while it -mostly- is the same (paying to leave or enter), it goes against every other game on the planet.  Most folks playing WitP are very familiar with grognard style games, and the fact that WitP seems to be the only one to pay to leave, it (obviously) causes no end of confusion.

I objectively understand that it mostly comes out in the wash, but frankly I think it was a collossal "WTF?" decision to do it that way, and doesn't bear defending.  Suffice to say, it -does- work that way (pay to leave), but that doesn't mean it was a good idea.

-F-

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 6:19:17 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
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From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, The reason is simple. Units pay to leave a hex not enter because that is where they are located at the time. Other games do not have variable movement rates that depend on fatigue and so you just pay as you go. In WITP a unit can actually be "interdicted" You can slow enemy movement by air attacks.  Pay as you enter does not work because units move over the 24 hour turn. In board games units always start a turn with full movement and move as long as they can pay cost. In no board game can you carry over unused movement points. In WITP you do carry over from 1 turn to the next.  Unless this is understood then WITP movement system looks strange. You can't think board game movement in WITP you have to adjust more to real time movement thinking. Units are moving when they are inside a hex not just when they cross a hex side into a new hex. (Thats where people become confused along with projecting the actual path the unit will take if ordered to move more then 1 hex)

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RE: Idiotic land combat movement - 6/29/2006 8:20:30 PM   
Kwik E Mart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The reason is simple. Units pay to leave a hex not enter because that is where they are located at the time. Other games do not have variable movement rates that depend on fatigue and so you just pay as you go. In WITP a unit can actually be "interdicted" You can slow enemy movement by air attacks.  Pay as you enter does not work because units move over the 24 hour turn. In board games units always start a turn with full movement and move as long as they can pay cost. In no board game can you carry over unused movement points. In WITP you do carry over from 1 turn to the next.  Unless this is understood then WITP movement system looks strange. You can't think board game movement in WITP you have to adjust more to real time movement thinking. Units are moving when they are inside a hex not just when they cross a hex side into a new hex. (Thats where people become confused along with projecting the actual path the unit will take if ordered to move more then 1 hex)


mog, you have the patience of a saint...thanks for taking the time to give a detailed explanation to the rest of us mere mortals

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