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Some early questions - 12/6/2006 8:25:39 AM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Playing as Union, 1st Lieutenant level, advanced settings:

1. I did a conscription in Brooklyn, and had the capitol destroyed in the ensuing unrest. Since one cannot build a new capitol, is it gone forever or does it rebuild eventually on its own?

2. Where is the initial Union artillery? Even early in the war (like First Manasas) the Union had relative scads of artillery, but the Armies of the Potomac have none. With all the support to the Confederacy from European nations, it seems way a-historical that the Confederates are going to outgun the Union in artillery from the get go.

3. What's the deal with money? I never seem to have enough to do anything other than a couple of minor things each turn or so. What is a reasonalbe production level of $$$? I am making about $25 per turn.....which sucks. I have built mints in several locations, but between infantry upkeep and some diplomacy I am luck to break even turn-to-turn. That hardly strikes me as lavish spending. I haven't been able to build a single ship or artillery unit without breaking the bank.

Anyone having similar situations?

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Feltan
Post #: 1
RE: Some early questions - 12/6/2006 8:52:03 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

Playing as Union, 1st Lieutenant level, advanced settings:

1. I did a conscription in Brooklyn, and had the capitol destroyed in the ensuing unrest. Since one cannot build a new capitol, is it gone forever or does it rebuild eventually on its own?

why can't you build a new one ?, it is buildable ??, you may need to build a Manson first, as you may be at your cap limit for buildings (ruins count as a building)

2. Where is the initial Union artillery? Even early in the war (like First Manasas) the Union had relative scads of artillery, but the Armies of the Potomac have none. With all the support to the Confederacy from European nations, it seems way a-historical that the Confederates are going to outgun the Union in artillery from the get go.

as has been posted in some other areas, the Union has it's Arty and Cav included as skills (add ons to the unit) which the Union did not have the Grand Battery setup like the South did, but can build them if they want

3. What's the deal with money? I never seem to have enough to do anything other than a couple of minor things each turn or so. What is a reasonalbe production level of $$$? I am making about $25 per turn.....which sucks. I have built mints in several locations, but between infantry upkeep and some diplomacy I am luck to break even turn-to-turn. That hardly strikes me as lavish spending. I haven't been able to build a single ship or artillery unit without breaking the bank.

Depends on what you are spending your money on, sometimes you have to cut back, do you have all your Armies on High Supply ? that cost money too, I have never seen the Union with that little money, but I was mainly the CSA tester

Anyone having similar situations?

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Feltan


_____________________________


(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 2
RE: Some early questions - 12/6/2006 3:37:04 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		Capitols can be built, in general, though you may have to build a new mansion to increase the city's support.  Cities also have a maximum number of buildings.  Presently ruins count toward a city's building support, though I may change the game if enough people think they oughtn't.

There are many ways to save money and to increase monetary income, but you can also just play with a higher power number from the setup menu to give yourself an economic bonus.


_____________________________



(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 3
RE: Some early questions - 12/7/2006 7:45:42 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		The capitol and cash problems I have figured out -- I'll chalk those up to being a noob at this game, and I appreciate the advise.

With regard to Union Artillery, I have to take significant exception to how you have it implemented. The Union, from the start, enjoyed a marked advantage in the number of artillery pieces and in the quality of those guns. Confederate howitzers, and most all of the fuses used by the South, were of inferior quality even for their time.

The organization you call the "grand battery" is misleading. The concept was implemented in the 1862/3 reorganization of the Confederate Army of Virginia, and the only time such a unit was deployed was for the third day of Gettysburg to support Pickett's charge. This "grand battery" totally failed in its mission to break the Union center, and the concept lost favor because: 1) it didn't work well, and 2) it was logistically impossible to sustain. In fact, the reason for this organization was one of mild desperation for the Confederates --- with the Union artillery in dominance, the Confederates wanted to be able to gain superiority on a localized basis. So much for great ideas.

In fact, both sides had similar organizations throughout much of the war with regard to artillery. To quote from: http://www.nps.gov/archive/gett/getttour/armorg.htm

quote:

The artillery was usually organized by regiments as well, except that each company was called a battery. A battery consisted of over 100 soldiers, armed with six cannon per battery. Confederate batteries were smaller, some having only four cannon. Batteries were assigned independently from their regiments to specific artillery brigades (Union) or battalions (Confederate) or to the artillery reserve of an army. Both of the armies had an artillery reserve which was an organization of extra batteries to be placed where needed. The Union army had one large artillery reserve force. The Confederate army had one reserve group per corps, but the number of guns was still smaller than the number of Union cannon.


One can also see organizational details discussed at the Civil War Artillery page: http://www.cwartillery.org/artillery.html

However, numbers (of which accurate ones are hard to come by) tell a compelling story. At the start of the war, the Union had about 250 pieces of field artillery. If one assumes about 50 pieces per brigade, the Union army should have about 4-5 artillery brigades to start the war, the Confederates considerably less. By 1865, the Union would have over 1600 field artillery pieces, or about 30+ artillery brigades in game terms. I cannot find a source that shows the Confederates every holding artillery superiority in any major battle, and often being outnumbered by 2x or 3x to one in terms of artillery pieces available. Another oft quoted, but hard to substantiate, claim is that around 2/3 of Confederate artillery came from capture of Union pieces (many of the early ones from Harper's Ferry).

Attaching a few 6 pounders to a few (apparently precious few) Union brigades at the start of the game is very misleading. The Confederate soldier and officer loathed, feared and respected Union artillery (unlike their opinion of Union infantry and cavalry). The current implementation in the game gives the South a huge advantage early on that they never historically enjoyed, and such errors cause a bias for Southern military aggression that, historically, they would have never embarked upon.

Regards,
Feltan




(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 4
RE: Some early questions - 12/7/2006 8:04:15 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		did a little checking on the OOB

from what I see (and there is randomness to the OOB)

the Union gets 11 add on Arty, and 13 add on Cav

the CSA gets 1 Arty BDE and 2 add on Arty and 5 add on Cav and 3 Cav BDEs (depends changes on start up)

so by that, the Union starts with a little over 5 Bdes of Arty to the CSAs 2, and 6 Cav to 5


_____________________________


(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 5
RE: Some early questions - 12/7/2006 8:23:29 PM   
Artmiser


Posts: 179
Joined: 12/4/2006
Status: offline 		Battle Of Antietam (Sharpsburg)
17 September 1862
 
Artillary for 1 corps 1 division Union
 





New Hampshire Light, 1st Battery
Lieut. Frederick M. Edgell. 6nr 12lb howitzers. C.

1st New York Light, Battery L
Capt. John A. Reynolds. 5nr 3" Rodman rifles. B.

1st Rhode Island Light, Battery D
Capt. J. Albert Monroe. 6nr 12lb SB Napoleons. B.

4th United States, Battery B
Lieut. James Stewart. 6nr 12lb SB Napoleons. C.


Longstreet

Mclaws Divison





Artillery
Maj. S. P. Hamilton

Manly's (North Carolina) Battery
Capt. Basil C. Manly. 1Nr 3" rifle, 2 Nr 12lb Howitzers, 3nr 6lb SB Napoleons. B.

Pulaski (Georgia) Artillery
Capt. John P. W. Read. 1nr 10lb Parrott rifle, 1nr 12lb howitzer, 2nr 6lb SB guns. B.

Richmond (Fayette) Artillery
Capt. M. C. Macon. 2nr 10lb Parrott rifles, 1nr 12lb Howitzers, 4nr 6lb SB guns. B.

1st Richmond Howitzers
Capt. E. S. McCarthy. 2nr 10lb Parrott rifles, 2nr 6lb SB guns. B.

Troup (Georgia) Artillery
Capt. H. H. Carlton. 2nr 10lb Parrott rifles, 1nr 12lb Howitzers, 2nr 6lb SB guns. B.


From this site http://www.dimacleod.co.uk/history/antietam/us-1.htm 

I recommend, guy did allot of research and there is a ton of data there available

What the north had was, in general, larger batteries.  Six guns per, almost always.  The south 4 to six guns in general and a hodge podge of guns.  In all the research I have done, the south often had as many batteries as the north, but they were not as effective.   Think about a battery of norther guns, all the same, are just better.  All six guns have the same effective ranges.  The south may have two longer range rifled guns and then a few six pounders for close in work.   At canister range both were probably about equal, but beyond that the north, in general, had the advantage.

Art



< Message edited by Artmiser -- 12/7/2006 8:37:13 PM >

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 6
RE: Some early questions - 12/8/2006 6:10:52 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

did a little checking on the OOB

from what I see (and there is randomness to the OOB)

the Union gets 11 add on Arty, and 13 add on Cav

the CSA gets 1 Arty BDE and 2 add on Arty and 5 add on Cav and 3 Cav BDEs (depends changes on start up)

so by that, the Union starts with a little over 5 Bdes of Arty to the CSAs 2, and 6 Cav to 5



It took me a little while to understand how you calculated your Brigade totals.

Historically, an infantry bridage attachment of artillery would have been small, a battery or two. This is consistent with the cost of the attachment in the game which is about (roughly) a 1/4 to a 1/5 of an artillery brigade (of which usually has 9 firing batteries).

So, I figured out (I think) that you look at an attachment as 1/2 of a brigade due to the fact that an infantry unit will convert to artillery if it has two of such attachments.

The game mechanism that allows conversion skews things up a bit. I am not saying it is a bad idea, but it is "odd" that the base infantry unit is canabilized during the conversion instead of a the infantry unit with two like attachments spawning a new unit and losing its attachments. I can rationalize spawning a new, weaker unit, but not sure why the design decision was made to canabalize the base infantry unit.

Anyway, Hard Sarge, thanks for the input. I can't say I am completely comfortable with how things start off from an OOB perspective, but it now seems to be grounded in some reality.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 7
RE: Some early questions - 12/8/2006 7:34:29 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

did a little checking on the OOB

from what I see (and there is randomness to the OOB)

the Union gets 11 add on Arty, and 13 add on Cav

the CSA gets 1 Arty BDE and 2 add on Arty and 5 add on Cav and 3 Cav BDEs (depends changes on start up)

so by that, the Union starts with a little over 5 Bdes of Arty to the CSAs 2, and 6 Cav to 5



It took me a little while to understand how you calculated your Brigade totals.

Historically, an infantry bridage attachment of artillery would have been small, a battery or two. This is consistent with the cost of the attachment in the game which is about (roughly) a 1/4 to a 1/5 of an artillery brigade (of which usually has 9 firing batteries).

So, I figured out (I think) that you look at an attachment as 1/2 of a brigade due to the fact that an infantry unit will convert to artillery if it has two of such attachments.

The game mechanism that allows conversion skews things up a bit. I am not saying it is a bad idea, but it is "odd" that the base infantry unit is canabilized during the conversion instead of a the infantry unit with two like attachments spawning a new unit and losing its attachments. I can rationalize spawning a new, weaker unit, but not sure why the design decision was made to canabalize the base infantry unit.

Anyway, Hard Sarge, thanks for the input. I can't say I am completely comfortable with how things start off from an OOB perspective, but it now seems to be grounded in some reality.

Regards,
Feltan



Well, didn't say it was perfect :)

but that is how the game is working/set up

_____________________________


(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 8
RE: Some early questions - 12/8/2006 8:38:41 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		Perhaps the "lost" men could be added to the next turns camp replacement total?

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 9
RE: Some early questions - 12/8/2006 9:07:34 PM   
christof139


Posts: 980
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Battle Of Antietam (Sharpsburg)
17 September 1862
 
Artillary for 1 corps 1 division Union

New Hampshire Light, 1st Battery
Lieut. Frederick M. Edgell. 6nr 12lb howitzers. C.

1st New York Light, Battery L
Capt. John A. Reynolds. 5nr 3" Rodman rifles. B.

1st Rhode Island Light, Battery D
Capt. J. Albert Monroe. 6nr 12lb SB Napoleons. B.

4th United States, Battery B
Lieut. James Stewart. 6nr 12lb SB Napoleons. C.


Longstreet

Mclaws Divison


Artillery
Maj. S. P. Hamilton

Manly's (North Carolina) Battery
Capt. Basil C. Manly. 1Nr 3" rifle, 2 Nr 12lb Howitzers, 3nr 6lb SB Napoleons. B.

Pulaski (Georgia) Artillery
Capt. John P. W. Read. 1nr 10lb Parrott rifle, 1nr 12lb howitzer, 2nr 6lb SB guns. B.

Richmond (Fayette) Artillery
Capt. M. C. Macon. 2nr 10lb Parrott rifles, 1nr 12lb Howitzers, 4nr 6lb SB guns. B.

1st Richmond Howitzers
Capt. E. S. McCarthy. 2nr 10lb Parrott rifles, 2nr 6lb SB guns. B.

Troup (Georgia) Artillery
Capt. H. H. Carlton. 2nr 10lb Parrott rifles, 1nr 12lb Howitzers, 2nr 6lb SB guns. B.


From this site http://www.dimacleod.co.uk/history/antietam/us-1.htm 

I recommend, guy did allot of research and there is a ton of data there available

What the north had was, in general, larger batteries.  Six guns per, almost always.  The south 4 to six guns in general and a hodge podge of guns.  In all the research I have done, the south often had as many batteries as the north, but they were not as effective.   Think about a battery of norther guns, all the same, are just better.  All six guns have the same effective ranges.  The south may have two longer range rifled guns and then a few six pounders for close in work.   At canister range both were probably about equal, but beyond that the north, in general, had the advantage.

Art

< Message edited by Artmiser -- 12/7/2006 6:37:13 PM >
quote:



hi there, New here and am waiting for the game to come out on CD Disk before I buy it.

Just wanted to say that 'Feltan' is correct in that the nion had more and better quality Arty. than the Confederacy. however, the Confederacy did produce Brooke and Tredagar Brooke rifled fieldpieces that were the equal of Union guns of the 10lb. - 20lb. Parrott and 3-inch Ordnance guns, they just didn't produce as much of them as the Union did although they did produce a considerable quabtity. Also, good 12lb Napoleons, both bronze and iron, were produced in the Confederacy, as well as 12lb. howitzers and 6lbers. Excellent, large Coastal and Naval guns were also produced by broke and Tredagar in the Confederacy.

Also, the New hampshire Battery you list seems to have had its older 12lb. Howitzers replaced immediately before the battle of Antietam, and recent research seems to prove this. I believe the Union had only 3-12lb Howitzers (1 of them a captured Confedrate piece in Simmond's KY Battery in IX Corps) and 2-12lb. Dahlgren Boat howitzers (a Company, maybe Co. K of the 9th NY Inf., Hawkin's Zouaves, I believe had these Dahlgrens), and there were maybe 4-6lb. James Rifled guns with a Massachussets Battery in IX corps, just off-the top of my head, but I do have this specific info. I believe this Massachussets Battery also had the other 12lb. Howitzers, 2 bronze 12lb. Howitzers.

This is but one instance on a samll scale where one Confederate Division had one more Battery than a Union Division. Both Mclaw's Division and Doubleday's 1st Division, I Corps both had 4 Inf. Brigades, and usually each Inf. Brigade would have a Battery attached in a permanent or semipermanet manner, or the Batteries would be arbritarily assigned from a Union Divisional Arty. Bde. or a Confederate Divisional Arty. Bn. Generally, Confederate Divisions would have more Brigades than a Union Division, but this is not always the case, and McLaw's Division's Arty. Bn. simply had an extra Battery, and this is also the case with some Union Divisions. The oposite is also true, a Confederate or Union Division may have had 4 Bdes. but only 1, 2, 0r 3 Batteries. It just depended on the amount of Arty. available on-hand, the TO&E at the specific time, and any reorganization that took place to a TO&E.

As the war progressed, a few Arty. reorganizations took place, with generally all Batteries that were officially attached to Inf. and Cav. Brigades being grouped together in Divisional, Corps and Army Reserve Arty. Brigades and Bns. for the Union and Confederates respectively.

At Antietam, both the Union and Confederate Armies had Army Reserve Arty, in addition to Brigade, Divisional and Corps Arty. organizations and attachments.

Some excellent books concerning this are: 1) Artillery Hell, the Employment of Artillery at Antietam, by Curt Johnson and Richard C. Anderson, Jr; 2) Four Years With General Lee, by Walter H. Taylor, a Staff Officer that was very close to R.E. Lee and wrote dispatches for him; 3) The Gleam of Bayonets, the Battle of Antietam and Robert E. Lee's Maryland Campaign, September 1862, by James V. Murfin; 4) From Cedar Mountain to Antietam, by Edward J. Stackpole, a retired General; 5) the excellent National Park Service sites concerning all the ACW battles; 6) the Antietam on-line Site, very excellent for unit compositions including gun types per Battery etc.; 7) Ploughshares into Swords, Josiah Gorgas and Confederate Ordnance, by Frank E. Vandiver; 8) Ironclads and Big Guns of the Confederacy, the Journal and Letters of John M. Brooke, edited by George M. Brooke, Jr.; 9) Ironmaker of the Confederacy, Joseph Anderson and the Tredagar Iron Works; and many other books and websites.

At Antietam, the Union had more and better quality, ie: rifled guns with only a very few 12lb. Howizers and 6lbers., while the Confederates had many, many of these older guns and less rifled pieces and 12lb. Napoleons.

The Union had more and better Arty than the Confederacy. There isn't one major battle that I know of where the Confederates had more and better Arty.

Both sides Arty. was organized in basically the same manner, with the Union using the term 'Arty. Bde.' and the Confederacy the term 'Arty Bn.

Nice to meet you all, and waiting for that CD Disk copy of the game, it sounds GREAT!!!!

Chris

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 10
RE: Some early questions - 12/8/2006 9:14:41 PM   
christof139


Posts: 980
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline 		Oops, sory, I goofed-up the 'quotes'. I haven't done this for awhile.

Off to the store now to get some more RAM. I have 768MB RAM now, but want to increase it to 1.5GB or 2GB. I hope best Buy has it on sale.

I also need a new Graphics/Video card, as I have an NVIDA Ge4000, and it acts funny, locks-up the screen when it refreshes, but then I can get the screen back and continue what I was doing, it is just a pain.

I'll get the RAM but may hold off on the Graphics Card. Any suggestions for a 128 or 256MB Card?? maybe an ATI raedon?? I have a mother board that is 3-years old but is fine as I have a 1.8MHz P-4, and good RAM.

Thanx in advance, Chris

(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 11
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