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Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/24/2006 8:02:37 PM   
Jutland13

 

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What is the most effective way to use sweep missions for AC. Thanks
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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/24/2006 9:00:58 PM   
tsimmonds


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As IJ I like to use them against airbases in conjunction with bomber strikes. I send in A6Ms on a sweep mission at 15-20k, and use Oscars to escort Sallys/Helens attacking the same base. The sweep usually takes a lot of the steam out of the CAP, allowing the bombers to hammer the airfield. Course if your fighters don't outnumber the defender's, all bets are off.

Do a couple recons first to see what kind of CAP the enemy has. You might also consider just sending in sweeps only for a turn or two, if it looks like you might want to soften the place up before you send in the bombers.

Don't try the 100' sweep/strafe thing. It won't give you what you want, i.e. a/c destroyed on the ground. What it will do is get your good pilots killed by AAA. Keep the sweep high and duke it out upstairs with the enemy VF. Leave the airfield to the bombers.

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/24/2006 11:20:49 PM   
Nemo121


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For you Jutland there is no such thing as an effective sweep mission ;). Your pilots are doomed, your planes are doomed and if you were in any way humane you'd just surrender now, scuttle all your ships and convert your entire society into an agrarian utopia ;).


For everyone else sweeps are pretty simple. Just put your fighters up at their maximum altitude and order a sweep. The altitude will give them the maximum advantage possible. Sprinkle in good pilots and lots of good planes and your sweep should do just fine.

I've experimented with different altitudes and I've never found any benefit in sending a sweep in at less than the ceiling of the fighter involved.

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/24/2006 11:44:00 PM   
Dino


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Does CAP altitude factor in as well? And what happens if defending fighters have a higher ceiling than attackers?

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/25/2006 12:16:12 AM   
Nemo121


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Dino,

Yes, basically if the sweep comes in higher than the CAP then the sweep has the advantage... that's why you should always set the sweep altitude as high as possible so as to get above the CAP.

Also if you sweep for a few days and force your opponent to increase his CAP altitude to counter then you can get a relatively clean shot with your bombers when you send them in at low altitude ( since the fighters will spend most of their intercept phase descending to the altitude of the bombers and thus get fewer actual firing passes). An awful lot of the game is very, very abstract and the uebercap issue ruins stock A2A combat BUT if you actually use one of the other A2A models you can actually see a lot of sophisticated caveats programmed in underneath it all ( caveats etc which are obscured by the stock A2A model).

I routinely use high altitude fighter sweeps/escorts and high/low altitude bomber mixes to get large portions of my bomber stream over the target free from interception.

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/25/2006 1:59:06 AM   
Jutland13

 

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Thanks everyone, greatly appreciated, even though I can not use all of the advice (Nemo) LOL.

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/25/2006 3:40:54 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Dino,

Yes, basically if the sweep comes in higher than the CAP then the sweep has the advantage... that's why you should always set the sweep altitude as high as possible so as to get above the CAP.

Also if you sweep for a few days and force your opponent to increase his CAP altitude to counter then you can get a relatively clean shot with your bombers when you send them in at low altitude ( since the fighters will spend most of their intercept phase descending to the altitude of the bombers and thus get fewer actual firing passes). An awful lot of the game is very, very abstract and the uebercap issue ruins stock A2A combat BUT if you actually use one of the other A2A models you can actually see a lot of sophisticated caveats programmed in underneath it all ( caveats etc which are obscured by the stock A2A model).

I routinely use high altitude fighter sweeps/escorts and high/low altitude bomber mixes to get large portions of my bomber stream over the target free from interception.



NO! Altitude doesn´t matter at all. Read the thread that I started about the bounce, that brought up things I never thought could even be!

Altitude doesn´t matter. Ridicoulos but that´s how it works. Altitude is only for your bombers important (take more or less damage from flak).

Repeat: altitude doesn´t matter on a sweep mission. What does matter is radar. If the defender has enough radar stacked in a base then the detection level gets that high that the defender even gets the bounce on and on and on (until the fight ends) and the attacker suffers from it. I sent in Tojos on a height that Hurricanes even can´t get but got bounced by the Hurries a hundred times without getting the bounce even once. After a long rant, I was told that the reason for this is the detection level loopside because of the radar at the base... To answer a probably upcoming question: YES THE BOUNCE IS VERY IMPORTANT!


< Message edited by castor troy -- 12/25/2006 3:49:46 PM >

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/25/2006 5:24:40 PM   
VSWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

NO! Altitude doesn´t matter at all. Read the thread that I started about the bounce, that brought up things I never thought could even be!

Altitude doesn´t matter. Ridicoulos but that´s how it works. Altitude is only for your bombers important (take more or less damage from flak).

Repeat: altitude doesn´t matter on a sweep mission.

That is NOT what michaelm said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The "climbing", "intercepting" etc messages are displayed first.
These messages don't affect the 'bounce' as curretly designed.

This does NOT mean that the climbing/intercepting messages don't matter at all. They do affect A2A combat, just not the 'bounce'. IMO Nemo's analysis is entirely correct, and his advice is very good.

< Message edited by VSWG -- 12/25/2006 5:49:48 PM >


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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/25/2006 7:44:56 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

NO! Altitude doesn´t matter at all. Read the thread that I started about the bounce, that brought up things I never thought could even be!

Altitude doesn´t matter. Ridicoulos but that´s how it works. Altitude is only for your bombers important (take more or less damage from flak).

Repeat: altitude doesn´t matter on a sweep mission.

That is NOT what michaelm said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The "climbing", "intercepting" etc messages are displayed first.
These messages don't affect the 'bounce' as curretly designed.

This does NOT mean that the climbing/intercepting messages don't matter at all. They do affect A2A combat, just not the 'bounce'. IMO Nemo's analysis is entirely correct, and his advice is very good.



What did he say then? He said that radar raises the DL and therefore those loopsided bounces result.

And altitude doesn´t matter. If it would then those Hurricanes couldn´t bounce my Tojos because my Tojos are flying 3000 feet higher than those Hurricanes can even go! So altitude doesn´t matter on sweep...

Do a test if you don´t believe me. I´ve used all alts except 100 ft with always the same result. So it might be "more fun" to set alts when doing a sweep but it doesn´t effect the outcome. At least not im MY games...

< Message edited by castor troy -- 12/25/2006 7:56:18 PM >

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/25/2006 8:40:35 PM   
VSWG


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If you would actually read what Nemo wrote, you would see that the 'bounce' is completely irrelevant for his strategy.

Michaelm wrote that altitute does not matter in regard to the bounce message, but he did not say that altitute didn't matter for other aspects of A2A combat. Altitute does matter when it comes to CAP climbing/descending to enemy planes, and that is what Nemo was talking about.

Bottom line: while the 'bounce' is an important part of A2A combat (and sadly, altitude doesn't matter here), there are other factors to consider too, and for some of them altitute does matter.


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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/25/2006 9:00:27 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

If you would actually read what Nemo wrote, you would see that the 'bounce' is completely irrelevant for his strategy.

Michaelm wrote that altitute does not matter in regard to the bounce message, but he did not say that altitute didn't matter for other aspects of A2A combat. Altitute does matter when it comes to CAP climbing/descending to enemy planes, and that is what Nemo was talking about.

Bottom line: while the 'bounce' is an important part of A2A combat (and sadly, altitude doesn't matter here), there are other factors to consider too, and for some of them altitute does matter.




It does matter if there isn´t radar. If there is radar then it doesn´t matter because then all the planes on CAP will be in the air AND at your altitude. And altitude matters too when there are two special allied plane types are in the air (P39 and another one I can´t remember), those get a penalty at higher alts.

What other aspects can you tell me where alt matters?? And when I see how important the bounce seems to be, the "other" aspects can easily be forgotten...

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/25/2006 10:59:49 PM   
Nemo121


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Castor,

In some ways you are correct, in others very much incorrect. As often happens when one is annoyed by an issue one tends to focus on that issue as being the cause of all ills to which one is subjected. This is rarely correct.

Specifically, yes, radar helps planes get the bounce on their opponents ( and this matters for both the defending and attacking planes ) but so does altitude. To focus just on the bounce and to claim altitude doesn't matter at all is incorrect and a disservice to those asking the question.

As always the outcome of a sweep is the result of an interplay between plane types, pilot experience and those factors which effect which side gets positional advantage ( mostly altitude, radar detection level, the % of CAP in the air prior to the raid being spotted and mission types of both forces ... escorting fighters get less of a bonus than sweeping fighters).

Now, can the attacking player do anything about the defender's CAP levels r altitude on THAT turn? No. ( The defender can, obviously, encourage the CAP to be at low altitude by sending in low-altitude sweeps for several days in a row prior to the current day's attack.)
Can the attacking player do anything about the mission types assigned other CAP-capable defending planes? No - except insofar as he can tie them down with other mission types but that's quite an advanced tactic and something well beyond the bounds of what is being asked here.
Can the attacking player do much about radar detection levels? Well he can't do much about the defender's radar but he can try to have either a ground-based or sea-based radar in range of the base he is attacking ( something eminently possible when one is bombarding the base or protecting transports just offshore). Most of the time though there isn't anything one can do THAT TURN to effect friendly radar coverage. it is either there or it isn't, one can't usually magic it up that turn.

So, what can the player do on THAT TURN to improve his fighters' chances? He can send them in at maximal altitude. Does it achieve as much as it should if the attacker's ceiling is greater than the defender's ceiling? No but it is hardly, unforunately, the greatest error in this game's combat model.


So, should it be fixed? Yes but by the same token your appreciation of what is going is also incorrect. Logically if you look outside of this single issue you would see that the game DOES take into account maximum altitudes. There is even a message generated when a strike flies in over the maximum ceiling of the defending fighters explaining why they can't intercept. So what you are seeing is NOT Allied CAP magically teleporting up above their maximum altitude. What you are seeing is the Japanese coming down to the altitude of the Allied CAP and not getting sufficient bonuses in this special instance to overcome the Allied radar bonuses. So, you've identified the problem incorrectly and thus the solution required is a bit of "special instance code" for when the sweep altitude is higher than the ceiling of the plane performing CAP... code which gives the plane with the higher altitude a massive boost to its ability to bounce the plane with the lower maximum ceiling - to represent the higher plane using boom and zoom tactics to take advantage of this ceiling advantage. a la Ta-152.


But is your explanation, whereby altitude doesn't matter at all, valid? Absolutely not.


I would suggest that your comment that when you see how important the bounce seems to be you can forget about the other aspects easily is a probable pointer to a major flaw in your play. While we may all decry serious combat model errors it is also true that if we just throw our hands up and stop trying to eke out every other advantage possible that we will achieve inferior results. If you are doing this and aren't maximising altitude, friendly radar coverage etc then you are achieving less than you should and are probably creating a self-fulfilling prophecy where your results when fighting inside enemy radar coverage are truly horrendous.... they are, however, horrendous because you aren't maximising those aspects of the model which ARE open to your maximisation, not JUST because the bounce is so important.


Key hint ( and this is a simplification but, frankly, it will be ignored by Castor so I'm not concerned with typing out a big explanation for him to ignore. Those who are receptive will test it and incorporate it into their game).... IF you feel that your fighter force is going to get bounced a lot then focus on sending high-manoeuvrability planes in. They will get less shots at the enemy ( since most high manoeuvrability planes are relatively low speed) BUT they will get a lot of " plane x evades plane y" messages and prove much more survivable than you might otherwise expect. Thus while your high-speed interceptors may be the best plane to kill enemy fighters over your own base they are, frequently, not the best plane to send on sweeps over the enemy base ( if the enemy radar detection levels are high).

The above also contains information from which those of you interested in maximising the survivability of Japanese bombers with poor-quality fighter escorts in the face of Allied CV uebercap can extrapolate an attack plan which greatly increases plane survivability. The Allies don't need to finesse a solution so they can just brute force the uebercap issue most of the time, the Japanese need to finesse their attack plans in order to achieve success in 1944.


I trust it is now clear that the issue is more complicated than was initially presented... and I'm sure it is even more complicated than I understand.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 12/25/2006 11:18:38 PM >

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/26/2006 4:09:07 PM   
castor troy


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Nemo,

why should I ignore you? Why shouldn´t I read what you´re typing?

The problem is (and that´s a observation of my games for two years now - not a test that I made) that all the tactics that look good and would, or should, work in real life aren´t working in the game.

Okay, let the bounce beside. It still is a fact that if there are enough (probably only a couple) of allied baseforces at a base then their radar raises the detection level of the attackers that high that it "nearly" doesn´t matter (is it even observable) on what alt you set your attackers. As said before, I tried every possible alt (except 100 feet), mixed alts, all the same, high, low,... with the exact same outcome. The problem stays the radar, as it (not like you´re saying) really magically boosts the defending planes to every altitude. No matter if high or low or too high...

It may matter if you are escorting bombers and the chance is higher to get some through if the difference in alt of the defenders and attackers is high enough (and I´m not sure at all about that as again the radar might compensate that completely). I can only tell what I´m seing and I´m not saying the observations of other people are wrong. It may alot be dice rolls (same with the PTs when I get five times more hits like other people are seeing - no matter if I´m playing the Allied or Japanese side). I´m only saying that in my games that have entered 43 the radar seems to negate every tactic you try when attacking an Allied base. The same planes are shooting down their opponents in droves over other bases or the sea (when no radar is present) and get problems when attacking those radar stacked bases.

So perhaps alt matters. It may matter more early in the game. At the time the Allied gets more base forces it seems to not matter anymore. So if you sweep a target where are many BFs present you may get a problem because of that...

And just to point out again the situation of the game I´m talking about: Nik mod 8.0. Date 1/43. I´m using Tojos my opponent mostly Hurricanes. My pilots are all above 80 exp. his are probably very bad as he lost already 500 planes (the British only get 30 pilots per month in this mod IIRC). I´m killing off his planes every where else at a HIGHLY unrealistic way (since his pilot quality dropped). EVERYTHING is different above a base with the loopsided detection level because of the radar. I´m still not being the one that gets his head handed but the difference is obvious. Kill rates of 5-10:1 everywhere else over Burma and India compared to kill rates of 1:1 over bases with lots of radar. And as I said, tactic doesn´t matter there. Or do you think I´m employing wonder boy tactics everywhere else (man I must be the best tactician ever when producing those kill rates) and dumb ass tactics over radar stacked bases?

< Message edited by castor troy -- 12/26/2006 4:27:46 PM >

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/27/2006 11:11:35 PM   
alanschu

 

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Does this mean I should also send in my dive bombers at maximum altitude, to limit the CAP coverage, since they'll drop to 2000 ft to drop their bombs anyways?  And if I keep my escorts below them, any enemy fighters that arrive will hopefully get tangled up with them instead?

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/28/2006 8:13:37 AM   
Nemo121


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alanschu,

If you send your DB in at max altitude your escorts will attempt to fly 3000 feet above them and the DBs will drop to 2000 feet to release their payloads... Same for torpedo bombers.


One other thing: IF you have a fighter unit flying from the same airfield you can order them to sweep the enemy base and sometimes they will accompany the strike package and achieve noticeably superior results than if they were set on escort. Of course the trade-off is they may sweep completely independently and leave your strike unescorted. You can double up though with two fighter units, one escorting, one sweeping and that gives good results.

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/28/2006 8:28:41 AM   
alanschu

 

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Oh I know that Dive Bombers will drop their bombs at 2000 feet.  I was just curious if it was best to send them in at max altitude to try to limit the effectiveness of the CAP, since the CAP would have to climb like maniacs and perhaps not get to them before they do their dive.

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/28/2006 8:59:39 AM   
Nemo121


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Hmm, generally speaking extremes of altitude work well. About the worst you can do is send them in at 10,000 feet or so as most people run their CAP in the 10 to 20,000 foot range.

I wouldn't send DBs in very low since they are usually very, very fragile aircraft and die easily to FlAK so a high altitude approach is probably reasonable. Of course sending the DBs in high and something else ( maybe some level bombers) in down very low would be a superior mix as it would split the enemy CAP so that even if they do intercept only a portion of the CAP would intercept each component of your strike package - with obvious beneficial effects on their survivability.

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/28/2006 9:28:35 AM   
alanschu

 

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Well, I'm currently playing against the AI (just got the game this past week when it was on sale).  I suppose if the enemy CAP is set extremely high (I'm assuming that the CAP altitude is the same as whatever mission altitude setting you have on) then flying my Dive Bombers in really high will only really see the lack of FLaK as a benefit.  This is for a combination of carrier task forces doing raids (still early war, so I'm just probing and trying to inflict some losses since I know the enemy carrier fleet is being annoying in the DEI), so it might actually be best to send in my dive bombers at a variable height, with escorts split between the two heights.


I imagine there's not as much benefit to putting your approach at significantly less than the CAP, as I imagine going down is much faster than going up, so it might be best to just fight the enemy fighters and avoid the FLaK.


Thanks for your time BTW.

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/28/2006 4:06:06 PM   
Sardaukar


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*IF* I recall right, dive bombers that are sent in very high will attack in larger "packages"...that is, they tend to attack fewer targets. It's seen in combat report...like "9xHelldiver bombing at 2000ft" or something compared to "3x.., 1x.., 4x..etc". So if doing attacks vs plenty of ships in Port/TF it is more beneficial to try bit lower altitude than max altitude.

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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/28/2006 5:30:47 PM   
Nemo121


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Sardaukar, alanschu,

The knee in the altitude is at 16000 feet. Above that your planes will attack in 9 plane sections, below that they will attack in sections of 4 or less. 9 plane sections seem to achieve more hits for a given number of payloads dropped against manoeuvring ships.


Since there seems to be a fair bit of confusion over what is best I'll give some examples from recent games:

1. Empires Ablaze game in late December 1941. I have established about 60 G3Ms and 12  at Rabaul, which is level 3. The Allies have established about 40 Wirraways in PM and are rushing troops and supplies there in multiple AK convoys covered by strong surface forces. I am happy to let this continue for strategic reasons but wish to take a toll on the shipping used in this operation. As such I want to attack these ships while they are unloading/covering the unloading. Since I only have a Level 3 airfield I cannot simply crush the enemy shipping with massed twin-engined torpedo bomer strikes in an afternoon so I have to go for a more prolonged level-bombing campaign.

So, I am left with going in at 100 feet, 1000, 2000, 6000, 11000, 16000, 21000 or higher ( these are the normal altitudes I choose from, your mileage may well vary but the exact height isn't as important as the relative heights).

1. At 100 feet I will get extremely accurate results since my planes will skip bomb but I will also lose a significant number of planes to damage from the light AAA mounted on the enemy destroyers, cruisers and merchants. So, high return, quick return but high loss rate + a huge morale hit such that I will have to stand down my airgroups for a couple of days after each skip-bombing attack.

2. 1000 to 2000 feet. Less effective than skip-bombing and still within the effective range of enemy machine-gun calibre AAA. Also 1000 feet causes a huge morale hit. So 1000 feet is a bit less effective than skip-bombing, results in almost the same losses, has the same devastating effect on morale but promises a quick return. At 2000 feet you lose even more effectiveness but in return the effect on your morale is less. Losses are probably the same as the light FlAK can reach up to at least 2000 feet.

3. 6000 feet. A significant decrease in effectiveness when compared to bombing at 1000 or 2000 feet BUT you are high above the lightest of the enemy FlAK so losses ( when attacking naval targets) and morale hits will be quite low ( 6000 feet of altitude when attacking ground targets defended by medium calibre AAA wil result in devastating losses, far higher than the 3% of sorties which is the maximum which can be sustained without catastrophic loss of experience in the medium term).

4. 11,000, 16,000 and 21,000 result in a fairly logarithmic decrease in the "to hit" percentage of any bombs dropped. These altitudes are only really useful when either:
a) you simply cannot afford any losses at all.
b) you are flying training missions where the important thing is the carrying out of a bombing raid, not the result.
c) flying lower will result in catastrophic losses which you wish to avoid.
d) you are "baiting" enemy CAP... I will explain what I mean by this later.


So, in the above example, when I faced Wirraways I figured I could clear the way easily enough with Zeroes such that my Bettys and Nells would not be heavily intercepted by enemy fighters. Since they weren't going to be intercepted and suffer massive losses I had the option of flying them day after day. Obviouly if they are going to be heavily intercepted their morale is going to be so shattered that they are not going to be fit to fly for several days afterward and one may then decide to send them in at 1000 or 2000 feet so that your "single shot attack" is maximally effective. So taking that into account I flew them in at 6000 feet and over the course of about 5 days of bombing missions I have scored about 30 x 250 Kg bomb hits for no loss. I haven't lost a Zero or Betty or Nell to enemy fire and have 3 or 4 enemy ships in sinking condition.

If you are facing a one shot deal then  you should give serious consideration to going in at 1000 or even 100 feet. I particularly favour 100 foot strikes by torpedo planes when Allied CAPs get too strong as the very low altitude seems to protect them from most of the CAP ( you can maximise this by sending in a small group of bombers at 25000 feet+ so that your escorting fighters all escort at 28000 feet. For the sacrifice of 9 or so bombers in the high flight ( 25000 feet+) you can succesfully draw the enemy CAP out of position and ensure most of the torpedo bombers will get through. Their losses will be heavy but thats inevitable with Japanese torpedo bombers in any case.


So those are the considerations. Every mission requires weighing the four factors outlined above ( and a few others related to specific missions ) if you want to determine what the optimum strike profile is going to be. You always have to measure up your capabilities against those of the enemy CAP, enemy AAA, your morale, how quickly you need to achieve success, how much you can afford losses, what your morale is and what the inspirational qualities of your leader are ( repairs morale once they arrive back in base).

One other thing... IF you are sending Bettys etc out on long-range missions where they may not have fighter cover then look for bomber-qualified leaders with low aggression. These guys will attack the target BUT once they start getting shot down without fighter cover they will quickly bug out. An aggressiveness of 40 instead of 65 can be the difference between losing 4 planes and losing 14 on a single mission.

So, it is complicated, there's an interplay of many factors and only through trial and error will you find what works for you. I, personally, am a "get the results no matter what" kind of guy so I'm happy to order my torpedo bombers in at 100 feet if that will get me torpedo hits I otherwise won't get. These planes exist to torpedo ships, if they die in succeeding at that they are doing much better than those who survive by turning back without achieving their missions.



"Baiting" enemy CAP.... Your escorts fly 3000 feet higher than your bombers. Thus if enemy CAP is at 16000 feet and your bombers fly in at 11000 your escorts will fly at 14000. End result your escorts will not only be at a disadvantage because they are closely escorting the bombers ( within the defender's radar envelope) but also because they are at a lower altitude than the defending CAP. Now some may say that if you want to destroy the enemy CAP then all you have to do is run SWEEPs at maximum altitude and you can bait them whilst stacking the advantages in your favour. You are, of course, correct. That is, however, a brute force approach where you push superior force into the enemy's mass and wear them down with both sides knowing precisely what is being attempted. A good opponent who bears in mind that operational art is the art of stringing together a favourable set of acceptances of combat AND declinations of combat will simply decline to give you combat in the face of such sweeps. If, however, you send in some bombers at 26000 feet and your fighters are set to escort at 29000 you can usually bait the enemy into committing more and more fighters in an effort to stop the bombers when he would choose to conserve his fighters in the face of a sweep... Often they can also be unaware of the ramification of what is going on, being caught up in the dream of "stopping the bombers". Thus one can engage in maskirovka operations with your mission taskings and this should never be forgotten. A good rule of thumb is that 1/3rd of your total force ( navy, army and air force) should be engaged in maskirovka operations at all times.

(in reply to Sardaukar)
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RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/28/2006 6:28:36 PM   
Sardaukar


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Nice info, Nemo !!! Thanks !

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Post #: 21
RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/28/2006 6:38:29 PM   
alanschu

 

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Thanks for that Nemo.

So if I want dead ships, I go above 16000 feet (since I'm using dive bombers, I imagine it won't really affect their accuracy, as they'll still drop their ordinance at 2000 feet).


One final question, can I bypass the second AA attack when my divebombers drop to 2000 feet by having it approach at 2000 feet or less?

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 22
RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/28/2006 7:37:44 PM   
pauk


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From: Zagreb,Croatia
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no, your dive bombers (or kamikazes) will be always attacked in the "second AA phase"

_____________________________


(in reply to alanschu)
Post #: 23
RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/28/2006 7:49:59 PM   
Nemo121


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Joined: 2/6/2004
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alanschu,

1. DBs... As far as I can see accuracy is not effected by the height at which they begin their dive so, yes, you are correct.

2. Good question. No, instead you just take FlAK at 100 feet AND the drop altitude and get completely slaughtered as dive-bombers tend to be more fragile than most things which loiter around at 100 feet.


About the ONLY reasons to go in at 100 feet are as follows:
1. You want to strafe PT boats ( naval attack + 100 )
2. You want to strafe an airfield ( sweep + 100 ).... rarely a good idea unless you are using sturdy twin-engined fighters to do the strafing.
3. FlAK suppression before launching a torpedo-bomber raid.... This is an EXTREMELY good use of the twin-engined Japanese fighter-bombers and they tend to survive CAP cause they come in under the radar ( at least until they are very close)... I have butchered the DDs and CLs on several Allied CV TFs and given my Bettys easy shots at the CVs and BBs using this method.

Send the twin-engined fighter-bombers in at 100 feet ( they often sneak in under the radar and get in with surprisingly few losses) and their multi-cannon fixed forward firing armament can really do a job on the AAA gun emplacements on CLs, DDs etc. Then the next turn send in the torpedo-bombers. I've tested this combo and it works wonders for survivability and hit rates... Total effective survivability ( based on HI to produce a plane, 18 HI per engine, 18 per airframe) over the entire force was actually slightly higher after Day 1 and over 200% improved on Day 2 strikes when compared with the same number of Bettys and fighters ordered in without any FlAK Suppression runs by the twin-engined fighter-bombers. The increased lethality was also remarkable with almost an entire CV TF being rendered combat incapable in the first day when FlAK suppression occured compared to when no FlAK suppression occurred.


And yeah before you ask, yes, I DO dream up and test new ways to penetrate Allied CV defences in 44 and 45. It is the most difficult challenge in this game ( just see PzBs AAR) and, therefore, the one which interests me most. A hi-med-lo mix is best.... Oscar IIs going in OVER the CAP for nuisance and AAA reduction value, the twin-engined FLAK suppressors going in ultra-low, the escort fighters going in with a sacrificial 12 bomber daitai at 26,000 or so feet and then your main torpedo bomber raid going in at 100 feet ( IF you can manage it the torpedo-bombers are often over twice as effective if sent in on the second day when the FBs etc have already damaged the ship FlAK positions so if you can afford to space the attack out over two days it can really work to your favour. If you don't have the escorts to pay the piper twice though you can just send it all in on the first day in order to guarantee success). You'd be surprised how much survives to actually fire at the Allied CVs with that force mix.... One other key is to just load up every fighter you can find as escort. It doesn't matter if it is a Nate with a 20 Exp pilot just so long as it absorbs one of the limited Allied firing passes... Sure it is gaming the system but when the system is flawed and an opponent takes advantage of said flaw to put up an uebercap you are justified in gaming the system to defeat said uebercap.

(in reply to alanschu)
Post #: 24
RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/28/2006 8:04:45 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Dino,

Yes, basically if the sweep comes in higher than the CAP then the sweep has the advantage... that's why you should always set the sweep altitude as high as possible so as to get above the CAP.

Also if you sweep for a few days and force your opponent to increase his CAP altitude to counter then you can get a relatively clean shot with your bombers when you send them in at low altitude ( since the fighters will spend most of their intercept phase descending to the altitude of the bombers and thus get fewer actual firing passes). An awful lot of the game is very, very abstract and the uebercap issue ruins stock A2A combat BUT if you actually use one of the other A2A models you can actually see a lot of sophisticated caveats programmed in underneath it all ( caveats etc which are obscured by the stock A2A model).

I routinely use high altitude fighter sweeps/escorts and high/low altitude bomber mixes to get large portions of my bomber stream over the target free from interception.


Be careful not to set your sweep too high or they will not engage the enemy CAP very well. I try to keep my sweeps roughly 2-3k above the CAP to ensure I have the advantage and to ensure a good furball...

Xargun

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 25
RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/28/2006 8:07:13 PM   
alanschu

 

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Would you find the 100 feet for skip bombing to be worth it or not?  It sounds like it's more accurate, and I imagine the belt hits will improve the amount of flooding damage, but at the same time, you take more losses.


As an interesting aside, I had fun with a 50 plane FG (the 24th, with P40E Warhawks) flying around at 100 feet doing naval attacks.  I have sunk about 6 ships (albeit all small ships) with their 100 lb bombs which I particularly enjoyed.  It was also funny seeing the 20-30 shell hits some boats would get from the strafing, which I imagine ultimately did little other than perhaps the odd point of system damage.  But the comedy is there :D

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 26
RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/28/2006 8:36:17 PM   
castor troy


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From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121


If you are facing a one shot deal then  you should give serious consideration to going in at 1000 or even 100 feet. I particularly favour 100 foot strikes by torpedo planes when Allied CAPs get too strong as the very low altitude seems to protect them from most of the CAP ( you can maximise this by sending in a small group of bombers at 25000 feet+ so that your escorting fighters all escort at 28000 feet. For the sacrifice of 9 or so bombers in the high flight ( 25000 feet+) you can succesfully draw the enemy CAP out of position and ensure most of the torpedo bombers will get through. Their losses will be heavy but thats inevitable with Japanese torpedo bombers in any case.





An opponent could call that pretty gamey though. This is exploiting the game engine and not a good tactic. Why should the CAP go after 9 bombers in 25000 ft with their escorts in 28000 ft when 150 bombers come in at 100 feet. In real life most of the CAP would just attack the UNESCORTED bombers at 100 feet.

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 27
RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/28/2006 9:53:31 PM   
alanschu

 

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I'm assuming they would only do that if the unescorted bombers weren't detected until it was too late.  If you see the 9 bombers up high, and start to go after them, by the time you're up there, the other bombers, coming in below radar from what I understand, would be able to get in for the attack easier.

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 28
RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/28/2006 11:38:12 PM   
Nemo121


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alanschu,

It really depends on what you are facing. As the Japanese your Bettys and Nells will be far more effective with torpedoes against all targets so you don't want them skip-bombing. OTOH if you are facing merchant ships then skip-bombing using your army level bombers can be well worth it. Whether or not it is worth skipombing DDs and CLs is really dependent on how important destroying them is. You will lose several planes for each bomb hit so you need to weigh that when making your decision. Skip-bombing is, IMO, useless against CVs, BBs and CAs.

If you like that wait until you get the B25s with MGs in a solid nose. Strafer's delight indeed.


Castor,
You misunderstand the situation I'm describing. The logic works out as follows:
1. Radar detects a large incoming raid. It cannot discriminate between fighters and bombers. In reality I could send in nothing but fighters at this altitude. I do not have this choice in WiTP hence the workaround.

2. CAP is directed to intercept this large, spotted raid.

3. In the meantime another raid comes in under the radar (just as could happen in real life)

4. The CAP has every chance to spot this raid visually once battle is joined ( just as could happen in real life) and will do so once it eliminates the high-level bombers. It will just take them quite a bit of time to descend from high altitude ( just as happened in real life)


So, if it is gamey to try to split the CAP just as happened in real life ( and most famously happened with a lo-hi split in favour of the Allies at Midway) well then I don't recognise your definition of gamey. As to most of the CAP going after the unescorted bombers.... well it will once it finishes with the bombers up high. Being low just buys you time and allows for fewer fighter passes before you reach the target. This is realistic.

IN any case you are, of course, welcome to your opinion and I, for one, would never force you to adopt a real, historical tactic which you feel is gamey.

(in reply to alanschu)
Post #: 29
RE: Air Combat Sweep Missions - 12/30/2006 12:25:33 AM   
Jutland13

 

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Joined: 7/5/2006
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Hello all. No offence to anyone, but could the term "gamey" not be used in any of my forums. I associate it with "whiney". I am overgeneralising, but this is one term I have really become annoyed with. It seems a subjective term used by players who cannot make the game and the other player do exactly as they expect they should. I do appreciate all of the response, it has been very helpful. Thanks and good "gaming"!

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 30
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