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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> july '42 how to organize jap carriers?

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july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/17/2007 12:37:09 AM

George Patton

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Hi guys,

I'm fighting a decisive battle against US Navy. The enemy has at least 3 CV. I dispose of 5 CV and 2 CVL. 2 of the CV are at 25 % damage but still operational.
I'm really undecided how to organize the carriers. All in one TF, 2 TF, 3 TF? I dispose also of 7 BBs and several CAs, CLs and DDs
It's vital for me to smash the US Navy but I need to take the right decision. We are fighting neare a 2 4-size afld and the enemy dispose of about 30-40 bombers, most of them B-17.
Enemy carriers are now at anchor in port, but docked.

Post #: 1

RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/17/2007 1:23:01 AM

niceguy2005

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quote:

ORIGINAL: George Patton

Hi guys,

I'm fighting a decisive battle against US Navy. The enemy has at least 3 CV. I dispose of 5 CV and 2 CVL. 2 of the CV are at 25 % damage but still operational.
I'm really undecided how to organize the carriers. All in one TF, 2 TF, 3 TF? I dispose also of 7 BBs and several CAs, CLs and DDs
It's vital for me to smash the US Navy but I need to take the right decision. We are fighting neare a 2 4-size afld and the enemy dispose of about 30-40 bombers, most of them B-17.
Enemy carriers are now at anchor in port, but docked.

Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to George Patton)

Post #: 2

RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/17/2007 2:45:33 AM

tsimmonds

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Do not use damaged carriers (in the orange). They are bomb magnets because of their slower speed (and smoke?). They will be sunk directly.

Organize your ships in TFs of 2 CVs + appropriate screening vessels each. Set all CVTFs to follow a SCTF and keep them all together in one hex in order to share CAP. If you anticipate air combat, set your CVTFs to Full Speed to insure that you will not run out of Op Points!

As IJ you must keep a replenishment TF on hand at all times. They should be in the same hex with your CVTFs every turn that you do not anticipate combat. An IJN CVTF (specifically its DDs) can burn through its fuel in just a couple of turns. Refueling is incompatible with air combat.

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RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/17/2007 2:54:12 AM

Rafael Warsaw

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For heavens sake ATTACK while the enemy is docked, or at least in a coastline hex.

If it were me I would send my 25% damaged CV back for repairs. They will:
A. Raise your detection level
B. Likely be inopperable with even 1 bomb hit.

3 CV and 2 CVL should be plenty of force to take on the 3 allied CV. In 3 TF would be optimal, but that might depend on your escort availability.

Is this a stock scenario or smth modded?
How far are You from Your nearest decent port?
More data needed.
In stock I would move this two 25% back and LCAP main TF
In modded AtA 3 vs 3 is not a good ratio (unless docked in port or coastal).
Take care mate. KB is not invincible.

P.S.
theres a post with in depth analyst of IJN TF composition. Start to dig in.

In general 200 planes per TF plus fast BB plus some CA and DDs.
All in All less than 15 ships in TF.
BB TF in same hex helps too and gives You an adventage - E planes like big targets and BBs fits into this category plus they are tough plus its better to lose BB than a carrier plus USN probably do not have BBs at disposal. Dont bother with B17 ('42) if they cant fly lower than 15k on naval.

I hope it helps.
Good luck - HIT HIM FAST, HIT HIM HARD! HIT HIM OFTEN! "Bushido code"

< Message edited by Rafael Warsaw -- 4/17/2007 2:57:39 AM >

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"A long and studied assessment of your situation, fabertong leads me to reach the unescapable conclusion that your fcuked mate. Hope this helps." by Raverdave.

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Post #: 4

RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/17/2007 3:48:56 AM

bradfordkay

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" If you anticipate air combat, set your CVTFs to Full Speed to insure that you will not run out of Op Points! "

This seems counter-intuitive. Is this a typo, or is it how the game works?

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Brad

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Post #: 5

RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/17/2007 3:53:58 AM

tsimmonds

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If you are not set to Full Speed, then moving 2 hexes during the daytime naval movement phase will use all of the op points of the slowest ship in your TF--which is often a CV. If you are set to Full Speed, and move only 2-4 hexes during the daytime phase, this will leave you with a comfortable margin of op points for air ops. Of course, if you set to full speed and move your max move, you have gained nothing. I left that part out.

Set to Full Speed, but move no more than 7-9 hexes (depending on whether your max move per phase is 5 hexes or 6), so you move most of your move during the night, and just a couple of hexes during the day. The ideal move would be a Full Speed sprint to reach your DH during the night, which would allow you to loiter in the DH during the daytime phase, with all Op Points reserved for air ops.

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 4/17/2007 3:59:42 AM >

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RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/17/2007 1:20:12 PM

George Patton

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From: Lugano, Switzerland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rafael Warsaw

For heavens sake ATTACK while the enemy is docked, or at least in a coastline hex.

If it were me I would send my 25% damaged CV back for repairs. They will:
A. Raise your detection level
B. Likely be inopperable with even 1 bomb hit.

3 CV and 2 CVL should be plenty of force to take on the 3 allied CV. In 3 TF would be optimal, but that might depend on your escort availability.

Is this a stock scenario or smth modded?
How far are You from Your nearest decent port?
More data needed.
In stock I would move this two 25% back and LCAP main TF
In modded AtA 3 vs 3 is not a good ratio (unless docked in port or coastal).
Take care mate. KB is not invincible.

P.S.
theres a post with in depth analyst of IJN TF composition. Start to dig in.

In general 200 planes per TF plus fast BB plus some CA and DDs.
All in All less than 15 ships in TF.
BB TF in same hex helps too and gives You an adventage - E planes like big targets and BBs fits into this category plus they are tough plus its better to lose BB than a carrier plus USN probably do not have BBs at disposal. Dont bother with B17 ('42) if they cant fly lower than 15k on naval.

I hope it helps.
Good luck - HIT HIM FAST, HIT HIM HARD! HIT HIM OFTEN! "Bushido code"

Ok, here are more details.

I'm east of Gisborne, fighting for New Zealand. Time is beginning of July, 1942.
I don't have any other carriers right now in the area. I have 1 CVL+ 1 CVE in Kwajalein, the others are in Japan for repairs. A couple of them are in good shap (around 10-14).

So I put all the BBs togheter? No BB to escort the carriers?

It's a Nik's scenario, number 157, with AB'ext map.

My carriers need one more turn to meet themselves NE of Gisborne. I have plenty of AO. But if I put the AO on the same hex as the carriers they cannot sail at the same speed as the flattops right? Or I need to slow down the speed of the entire fleet?

What does SCTF is meaning?

Thanks for the suggestion guys.

(in reply to Rafael Warsaw)

Post #: 7

RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/17/2007 2:05:41 PM

tsimmonds

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SCTF = surface combat TF

You probably don't actually want to have the oilers in the hex with the CVs the turn you do battle. But what I would do would be to top off fuel the day before, set my combat TFs to Full Speed, set my CVTFs to follow an SCTF, and set the SCTFs DH as the hex from which I hoped to launch. The distance to this hex would ideally be no more than 7 hexes assuming my TFs could move 5 per phase. If you've got Junyo/Hiyo, or if the damaged ships make you a 4-hex TF, then 7 hexes becomes 5-6. This is another way the damaged CVs hurt you.

Personally, I would not do this op you are planning, having to rely on damaged CVs and going within range of his LBA. Too many things can go wrong. But that's me.

Anyway, the replenishment TF can loiter near the hex you refueled in, or move to some other hex that is on the way to wherever it is you plan to bug out to when you op is done.

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 4/17/2007 2:06:45 PM >

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RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/17/2007 2:32:39 PM

George Patton

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From: Lugano, Switzerland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

SCTF = surface combat TF

You probably don't actually want to have the oilers in the hex with the CVs the turn you do battle. But what I would do would be to top off fuel the day before, set my combat TFs to Full Speed, set my CVTFs to follow an SCTF, and set the SCTFs DH as the hex from which I hoped to launch. The distance to this hex would ideally be no more than 7 hexes assuming my TFs could move 5 per phase. If you've got Junyo/Hiyo, or if the damaged ships make you a 4-hex TF, then 7 hexes becomes 5-6. This is another way the damaged CVs hurt you.

Personally, I would not do this op you are planning, having to rely on damaged CVs and going within range of his LBA. Too many things can go wrong. But that's me.

Anyway, the replenishment TF can loiter near the hex you refueled in, or move to some other hex that is on the way to wherever it is you plan to bug out to when you op is done.

Thanks for the advice but I want to sunk all the 3 enemy carriers. I sunk by now Lexington and Enterprise arrived in SF with 96 damage a month ago. I want to have the superiority in the area to conquer all NZ.

Question: why set the CVBG to follow the SCTF (I like to call it SAG)?

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RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/17/2007 2:37:18 PM

tsimmonds

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That way the CVTFs won't react.

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RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/17/2007 3:24:46 PM

George Patton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

That way the CVTFs won't react.

also if I set the reaction range to, let's say, 3 or 6?

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RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/18/2007 9:16:06 AM

KPAX

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

That way the CVTFs won't react.

maybe a dumb question, but why do you not want them to react ?

Isn't that why the CVTF is there ?

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Thanks !!

KPAX

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RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/18/2007 9:51:47 AM

bradfordkay

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Japanese carrier aircraft have a significant range advantage over the USN ones. If the TF reacts towards the Americans, it might bring it into USN carrier bomber normal range - negating that advantage.

< Message edited by bradfordkay -- 4/18/2007 9:53:16 AM >

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RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/18/2007 12:29:07 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPAX

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

That way the CVTFs won't react.

maybe a dumb question, but why do you not want them to react ?

Isn't that why the CVTF is there ?

like bradfordkay said. As an Allied player you want your carriers to react to bring in torps and 1000 lb bombs. As a Japanese player you don�t want your carriers react because your planes never carry any bigger bombs and the torps are carried nearly the max distance (4 hexes, max distance 5).

(in reply to KPAX)

Post #: 14

RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/18/2007 1:21:32 PM

AmiralLaurent

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With 5 CV and 2 CVL I will organize two CV TF, a fast one (able to do 6 or 5 hex each turn) and a slow one (should sail 4-5 hex a turn) and then add in each TF BB able to do this speed (if you have a CV TF able to do 6 hexe, just add CA).
Then as above was said build a surface TF with remaining BB, CA and so on and have both CV TF follow it. That will negate the ability of the CV TF to react. Japanese AC have a greater range and fighting at a greater distance is so a better idea. Also that will allow you to keep the same distance regarding the Allied LBA, increasing the chance your damaged CV may retire and be out of range the next day in case something went wrong.

The division between slow and fast CV is in case all went well on the first day of the CV battle. The fast CV TF (that should include the DD with the most endurance (5000)) may then chase the fleeing enemy fleet, this time with reaction allowed.

About the CV with 25% damage, I personnaly dock my warships at 10% and repair them to 0. They are far more efficient that way (more fast, meaning less ops points used for moving and more available for launching AC or for surface action; harder to hit; harder to detect; able to still recover AC after one bomb hit; etc...). But now that you have them there, and a local superiority of CV I will use them in the incoming battle. By the way trading 2 of your CV against 3 Allied won't be a bad deal at this stage of the war...

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RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 4/22/2007 11:40:40 AM

George Patton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

With 5 CV and 2 CVL I will organize two CV TF, a fast one (able to do 6 or 5 hex each turn) and a slow one (should sail 4-5 hex a turn) and then add in each TF BB able to do this speed (if you have a CV TF able to do 6 hexe, just add CA).
Then as above was said build a surface TF with remaining BB, CA and so on and have both CV TF follow it. That will negate the ability of the CV TF to react. Japanese AC have a greater range and fighting at a greater distance is so a better idea. Also that will allow you to keep the same distance regarding the Allied LBA, increasing the chance your damaged CV may retire and be out of range the next day in case something went wrong.

The division between slow and fast CV is in case all went well on the first day of the CV battle. The fast CV TF (that should include the DD with the most endurance (5000)) may then chase the fleeing enemy fleet, this time with reaction allowed.

About the CV with 25% damage, I personnaly dock my warships at 10% and repair them to 0. They are far more efficient that way (more fast, meaning less ops points used for moving and more available for launching AC or for surface action; harder to hit; harder to detect; able to still recover AC after one bomb hit; etc...). But now that you have them there, and a local superiority of CV I will use them in the incoming battle. By the way trading 2 of your CV against 3 Allied won't be a bad deal at this stage of the war...

I've done the attack, as you people suggested. But my carriers reacted anyway!!!

I set the course to stop 5 hex off Auckland, so not in range of enemy ambarked planes but they moved closer anyway, so I lost Hiyo and Hiryu is badly damaged and on route to Japan.
But, anyway Hiyo worket as magnet. She took 10 bombs and 3 torpedoes and so the other ships escaped safely. Not bad.

Anyway I sunk Yorkrown, Hornet is badly damaged and Saratoga is lightly damaged. But the 2 carriers are trapped in Auckland's harbor now. Kido Butai is patrolling the area.

(in reply to AmiralLaurent)

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RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 5/8/2007 8:01:25 PM

fleetwood

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Would you use port attack or naval attack for docked ships? A little off topic, but on a uncommon valor game I found IJN ships sitting at guadacannel...I used both port attack and naval attack from a carrier force, but they never attacked the targets. I did so for a couple of turns...lcant remember specifics of what would have prevented them from attacking...weather was clear......

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RE: july '42 how to organize jap carriers? - 5/8/2007 8:05:13 PM

Mynok

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Port attack. Hit them hard while you've got them pinned!!

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