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Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/27/2006 10:58:52 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Here are the first 3 pages of the air unit tutorial.




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RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/27/2006 11:01:09 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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I have the pictures done for pages 4 and 5 and all the elements for the pictures (yet to be assembled) for 6, 7, and 8.




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RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/27/2006 11:04:04 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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3rd and last in series. Page 4 is air transports, 5 is carrier air units, 6 is lend lease, and 7 & 8? ... well, I think you'll like those pages.




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RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/27/2006 11:21:32 PM   
Froonp


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About page 1, and the Black circled air to air factor, you might say that this means that this aircraft does not suffer from a penalty when fighting at night, instead of saying that it has an air to air advantage. This seems the same, but this is more true saying it the first way IMO.

Let me also say that all those tutorials are GREAT GREAT GREAT readings, and I think that they might be used only for that by new players who own MWiF and want it to help them learn WiF FE. Congratulations. ou are, with simple words and a few explanations, showing WiF F mechanics simply and interestingly. Thanks !!!!

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 4
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/28/2006 12:34:18 AM   
Griffitz62


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I think the tutorials are excellent. I'm actually enjoying reading all of them. So here comes the really nit-picky stuff.

You might want to use the same word for the different components of an air unit. For example, you are freely using the words "rating", "factor" and "#" when talking about the air, sea, tac and strat values. It might confuse new players into thinking there is a difference between rating, factor and #.

Also, when you are explaining the cost difference (like F2 and F3) and then the time to build them, you may want to connect the two thoughts by using the word "respectively". For example, page 1, 3rd paragraph "Fighter cost 2 or 3 build points (called F2 and F3) and arrive in 2 or 3 turns." Add the word "respectively at the end of that sentence.

I know this is all minor stuff, but just trying to think like a total new player. Overall this is all excellent work.

Ken

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 5
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/28/2006 1:25:28 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Griffitz62
I think the tutorials are excellent. I'm actually enjoying reading all of them. So here comes the really nit-picky stuff.

You might want to use the same word for the different components of an air unit. For example, you are freely using the words "rating", "factor" and "#" when talking about the air, sea, tac and strat values. It might confuse new players into thinking there is a difference between rating, factor and #.

Also, when you are explaining the cost difference (like F2 and F3) and then the time to build them, you may want to connect the two thoughts by using the word "respectively". For example, page 1, 3rd paragraph "Fighter cost 2 or 3 build points (called F2 and F3) and arrive in 2 or 3 turns." Add the word "respectively at the end of that sentence.

I know this is all minor stuff, but just trying to think like a total new player. Overall this is all excellent work.

Ken

Thanks.

Re rating vs factor vs #, I guess this my fault for reading the rules. I noticed that WIF FE used ratnig for the air-to-air and factor for the other #s. I fnid # very helpful in cramming more words in a limited amount of space. It usually takes me 5 or 6 passes to edit my original long version down to something that fits. I'll give these a reread and see if I can establish a consistency - though it is a minor item in th egrand scheme of things.

I found refering to strength useful for the land units, and MPs for the naval units. Perhaps I can hit on something equally direct for the air units.

_____________________________

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Post #: 6
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/28/2006 1:28:14 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Griffitz62
I think the tutorials are excellent. I'm actually enjoying reading all of them. So here comes the really nit-picky stuff.

You might want to use the same word for the different components of an air unit. For example, you are freely using the words "rating", "factor" and "#" when talking about the air, sea, tac and strat values. It might confuse new players into thinking there is a difference between rating, factor and #.

Also, when you are explaining the cost difference (like F2 and F3) and then the time to build them, you may want to connect the two thoughts by using the word "respectively". For example, page 1, 3rd paragraph "Fighter cost 2 or 3 build points (called F2 and F3) and arrive in 2 or 3 turns." Add the word "respectively at the end of that sentence.

I know this is all minor stuff, but just trying to think like a total new player. Overall this is all excellent work.

Ken


I forgot to add, I wanted to stay away from saying the cost and turns match since when you are not using pilots, that isn't true. Nor is it true for land and naval units. Better to let the players think these values are uniquely determined for each unit than develop a belief that is unreliable.

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Post #: 7
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/28/2006 3:19:39 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Here are pages 4 and 5.




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RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/28/2006 3:23:06 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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2nd and last in series. I would like to include the change in class info in the unit data panel but it is so pretty the way Chris did it for CWIF, I am reluctant to change it. Taking it as is and just shoving it into the unit data panel would be real ugly.




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RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/28/2006 3:45:28 AM   
Greyshaft


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You say "Look at the F4F-3 in the lower left corner"... So I looked at the lower left corner  of the F4F3 counter and saw an asterisk.
Took me a minute or two to realise that you meant the lower left corner of the tutorial screen.
Maybe that needs clarification.
Maybe it's just me...

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Post #: 10
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/28/2006 3:57:27 AM   
christo

 

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Regarding the ability of the carrier planes to fit on smaller carriers, I wonder if it would be better for the example to show say a class 5 carrier (eg Essex) as well as a class 4 carrier (Enterprise) <ie from the same country>. This would mean that you could show that say in 1941 a SBC-2C (picked this plane at random) would fit on the Essex but in 1942 fit on the Enterprise. The newbie would then have pictures of both carriers in front of him.
You have said this already but I wonder if actually having the carriers in front of him may make it easier.

Christo

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Post #: 11
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/28/2006 4:11:06 AM   
Klingon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Griffitz62
I think the tutorials are excellent. I'm actually enjoying reading all of them. So here comes the really nit-picky stuff.

You might want to use the same word for the different components of an air unit. For example, you are freely using the words "rating", "factor" and "#" when talking about the air, sea, tac and strat values. It might confuse new players into thinking there is a difference between rating, factor and #.

Also, when you are explaining the cost difference (like F2 and F3) and then the time to build them, you may want to connect the two thoughts by using the word "respectively". For example, page 1, 3rd paragraph "Fighter cost 2 or 3 build points (called F2 and F3) and arrive in 2 or 3 turns." Add the word "respectively at the end of that sentence.

I know this is all minor stuff, but just trying to think like a total new player. Overall this is all excellent work.

Ken

Thanks.

Re rating vs factor vs #, I guess this my fault for reading the rules. I noticed that WIF FE used ratnig for the air-to-air and factor for the other #s. I fnid # very helpful in cramming more words in a limited amount of space. It usually takes me 5 or 6 passes to edit my original long version down to something that fits. I'll give these a reread and see if I can establish a consistency - though it is a minor item in th egrand scheme of things.

I found refering to strength useful for the land units, and MPs for the naval units. Perhaps I can hit on something equally direct for the air units.
You could put in the standard disclaimer, that the terms "#", "rating", and "factor" all refer to the numerical value in the indicate position on the counter, and are used interchangably for the sake of not using the exact same word over and over again...

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 12
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/28/2006 9:01:07 AM   
Froonp


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About page 4, you might say that the CVP are shown in profile, but that the angle of the plane does not impose a role on it. Some people believed that the more pitched ones were bombers, and the more horizontals were fighter, which is wrong. The Swordfish in your example can be used as a fighter, I mean, contribute with his 2 Air to Air Factor to the fighter force.

Well, what I wrote may seem crazy if one does not know that in WiF FE, the aircraft depicted on the counter does not represent the only aircraft type composing the counter, it represents the aircraft type that is the most numerous within that counter. So, that Swordfish has some fighters planes component too.

< Message edited by Froonp -- 10/28/2006 9:05:00 AM >

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RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/28/2006 9:07:08 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

You say "Look at the F4F-3 in the lower left corner"... So I looked at the lower left corner  of the F4F3 counter and saw an asterisk.
Took me a minute or two to realise that you meant the lower left corner of the tutorial screen.
Maybe that needs clarification.
Maybe it's just me...

1 minute or 2 staring at the asterisk !!!
Wow, I'm impressed
I did not have the problem myself, but maybe that's just me

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Post #: 14
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/28/2006 7:10:11 PM   
CBoehm

 

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Regarding the airtransports ...maybe its too detailed ...but the LARGE transports like the Skymaster & Gigant have their range halfed ...when utilizing their 'large' capacity to either transport an INF corps OR to reorganize with 2 reorg-points ...

Regarding carrier air missions ...maybe you should mention that they have 2 basic operations ...on sea ...(the missions that you mention) or fly in over land ...either to bomb ships or units or as a fighter...

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Post #: 15
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/28/2006 8:08:53 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: christo
Regarding the ability of the carrier planes to fit on smaller carriers, I wonder if it would be better for the example to show say a class 5 carrier (eg Essex) as well as a class 4 carrier (Enterprise) <ie from the same country>. This would mean that you could show that say in 1941 a SBC-2C (picked this plane at random) would fit on the Essex but in 1942 fit on the Enterprise. The newbie would then have pictures of both carriers in front of him.
You have said this already but I wonder if actually having the carriers in front of him may make it easier.

Christo


Thanks. But I'll leave this as is. I like having this page match the earlier one on carriers.

I appreciate that your suggestion would be clearer, but I will rely on that little box in the bottom left corner of the page to explain things. Personally, I had a lot of trouble figuring out what this rule was all about when I first read the rules on carrier planes. That's why I made a big deal about the air units changnig class being a unique concept.

I am also rather agressively trying to show as many different units and major powers as I can. One thing that becomes apparent when doing this, is that less than 8% of the 1200+ air units will be shown in the tutorials.

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Post #: 16
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/28/2006 8:10:40 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

You say "Look at the F4F-3 in the lower left corner"... So I looked at the lower left corner  of the F4F3 counter and saw an asterisk.
Took me a minute or two to realise that you meant the lower left corner of the tutorial screen.
Maybe that needs clarification.
Maybe it's just me...

Off in the weeds again smelling the flowers, Dorothy?

I'll refer to the box instead of the F4F-3.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 17
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/28/2006 8:13:28 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm

Regarding the airtransports ...maybe its too detailed ...but the LARGE transports like the Skymaster & Gigant have their range halfed ...when utilizing their 'large' capacity to either transport an INF corps OR to reorganize with 2 reorg-points ...

Regarding carrier air missions ...maybe you should mention that they have 2 basic operations ...on sea ...(the missions that you mention) or fly in over land ...either to bomb ships or units or as a fighter...

I should have put in about the range being halved.

I intentionally glossed over that carrier air units can fly missions on land. Its complicated and subtle.

Note that I have not mentioned how air units move into sea box sections. Again, that was willful; I'm leaving it for the tutorial on air movement.

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Post #: 18
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/29/2006 1:28:23 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Here are 4 more pages of the 6th tutorial - hot off the presses.




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RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/29/2006 1:29:57 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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What can I say? The Axis at war?




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RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/29/2006 1:31:40 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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The tip of an iceberg is 9%.




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RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/29/2006 1:34:26 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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4th and last in the series.

I've been working for 6 hours, my wife is having lunch, so I need to eat breakfast now. I'll do the last page of this tutorial later - back to debugging after lunch, er, ... breakfast.




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RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 10/29/2006 8:15:09 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Here is the last page for this tutorial. Weather is next tutorial, #7, which should be quite short.




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Post #: 23
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 11/10/2006 10:59:14 AM   
graf spee


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Hi I am this “new player” who never played Wif but bought the game to be prepared when the computer version is out.
 
Read the rulebook a few times,setting up the Barbarossa scen.
at the moment.
 
I was already confused how aircraft were differentiated because in the scenario booklet it says under 24.1.6
“Some of the columns relate to aircraft set-up. Aircraft types are differentiated according to the time taken to build the unit.
 
In the colums of the scenario set-up it says under aircraft differentiated “by numbers of engine”
 
And in the beginning of tutorial 6 it says
“During set-up fighters are randomly drawn based on their cost”
 
This is not clear to me.
Regards Bob
 
 
 
is "

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 24
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 11/10/2006 11:27:31 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: graf spee

Hi I am this “new player” who never played Wif but bought the game to be prepared when the computer version is out.
 
Read the rulebook a few times,setting up the Barbarossa scen.
at the moment.
 
I was already confused how aircraft were differentiated because in the scenario booklet it says under 24.1.6
“Some of the columns relate to aircraft set-up. Aircraft types are differentiated according to the time taken to build the unit.
 
In the colums of the scenario set-up it says under aircraft differentiated “by numbers of engine”
 
And in the beginning of tutorial 6 it says
“During set-up fighters are randomly drawn based on their cost”
 
This is not clear to me.
Regards Bob
 
 
 
is "

Number of engines, Time taken to build, and Cost are all intimately linked in the WiF FE game system.

If you play with the pilots Optional Rule (this is simpler to explain, but I'll talk about the case if you play without pilots in the end) :

Fighters with 1 engine are called F2 (or FTR2), they cost 2 BP and take 2 turns to built.
Fighters with 2 engines are called F3 (or FTR3), they cost 3 BP and take 3 turns to built.

Land bombers with 1 engine are called L2 (LND2), they cost 2 BP and take 2 turns to built.
Land bombers with 2 engines are called L3 (LND3), they cost 3 BP and take 3 turns to built.
Land bombers with 4 engines are called L4 (LND4), they cost 4 BP and take 4 turns to built.

Naval bombers with 1 engine are called N2 (NAV2), they cost 2 BP and take 2 turns to built.
Naval bombers with 2 engines are called N3 (NAV3), they cost 3 BP and take 3 turns to built.
Naval bombers with 4 engines are called N4 (NAV4), they cost 4 BP and take 4 turns to built.

Air Transport with 2 engines are called ATR3, they cost 3 BP and take 3 turns to built.
Air Transport with 4 engines are called ATR4, they cost 4 BP and take 4 turns to built.

As you can see, the cost is equal to the duration to build, and the cost are consistent across planes types.
So :
a plane costing 2 is a 1 engined plane.
a plane costing 3 is a 2 engined plane.
a plane costing 4 is a 4 engined plane.

Finaly, if playing without pilots, all planes' costs are increased by 2 BP.
Durations are not affected.


Now, speaking about WF FE the cardboard game, there are 2 kinds of Plane counters. There are the plane counters from the standard WiF countersheets (CS1-6), and there are the planes counters from the PiF countersheets (CS7-9).
The former counters have their cost reflecting a "without pilots" play.
The later counters have their cost reflecting a "with pilots" play.
So, a FTR2 from the CS1-6 will have "4-2" printed on the back of the counter (cost 4, duration to built 2), while a FTR2 from CS7-9 will only have "2" printed on its back (cost 2, duration to built 2).
Whatever those figures printed on the back of the counters, if playing with pilots, the costs are as indicated above, and if playing without pilots the costs are the same as indicated above increased by 2 BP.

The scenario book of WiF FE differentiate those aircrafts in the setup charts. There are 2 columns for FTR2, 2 columns for FTR3, etc...
Bottom line is that, you randomely pick up as many FTR2 as the sum of both columns, and you choose within your picks the number of the first column (WiF FE planes) planes. Those planes are to be setup on the map, and the remaining planes go to the reserve pool, except if not playing with pilots. In that later case, they are returned to the force pool.

Well, I hope I was clear enought

(in reply to graf spee)
Post #: 25
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 11/10/2006 11:38:43 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: graf spee

Hi I am this “new player” who never played Wif but bought the game to be prepared when the computer version is out.
 
Read the rulebook a few times,setting up the Barbarossa scen.
at the moment.
 
I was already confused how aircraft were differentiated because in the scenario booklet it says under 24.1.6
“Some of the columns relate to aircraft set-up. Aircraft types are differentiated according to the time taken to build the unit.
 
In the colums of the scenario set-up it says under aircraft differentiated “by numbers of engine”
 
And in the beginning of tutorial 6 it says
“During set-up fighters are randomly drawn based on their cost”
 
This is not clear to me.
Regards Bob
 
 
 
is "



Let me see if I can help clarify this.

But first: I did not write any of the rules in WIF FE and my goal is to make the text clearer in the Rules As Coded document for MWIF - without changing their meaning.

There is a history for WIF that goes back over 20 years and some of us have a sort of accumulated knowledge that helps and hinders us. It helps in this case because we know what the authors are trying to say. It hinders at times because we remember and (try to) use obsolete rules instead of the current ones.

Aircraft are separated by type and by cost. Therefore, there are separate groups of fighters: those that cost 2 build points and those that cost 3 BPs. For naval air units, there are 3 groups: 2 BPs, 3BPs, and 4BP. These are referred to as F2 & F3, N2, N3, & N4 respectively. Likewise there are land bombers (L2, L3, & L4) and air transports/ATR (A2, A3, A4) - I am not sure if there are any A2's still in the game.

Those are the 4 main air unit groupings. If you play with Carrier Air Units, then all the carrier air units are lumped into one group.

The cost in BPs is the same as the # of turns it take to build the unit. So, an F2 costs 2 BPs and takes 2 turns. Hence the use in the rules of referring to either cost or # of turns.

For the land bombers, an L2 also has 1 engine, and an L4 has 4 eninges, which leads to the reference to the # of engines at times. I believe this reference is not always accurate (though I could be wrong).

Finally, (and there are a whole lot of knowledgeable WIF players who have been going crazy reading this up to this point because I haven't mentioned it already), all of the above assumes that you are playing with the pilots option. When you use the pilots option, pilots are built separately at a cost of 2 BPs per pilot. Should you decide to not use pilots, then the cost of every air unit is increased by 2 BPs. So, an F2 would cost 4 BPs if the pilot option is not selected.

The best way to refer to these would have been by the time it takes to build them. The other references are just confusing (as you duiscovered).


< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 11/10/2006 11:43:02 AM >


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Steve

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Post #: 26
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 11/10/2006 11:51:12 AM   
Froonp


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Hey it seems that we tried each one of us to explain it.

I like it when you explain that the system should have refered to the types by their duration to built, and not their costs .

quote:

Those are the 4 main air unit groupings. If you play with Carrier Air Units, then all the carrier air units are lumped into one group.

Here I would like to say that CVP (Carrier Planes) are also separated by Cost.
There are CVP who cost 0 BP, some who cost 1 BP (they are 95% of them), and some who cost 2 BP.

When you want to build CVP, you can choose whether you want to build CVP0, CVP1 or CVP2.
This was this latter point that I wanted to precise.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 27
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 11/10/2006 12:01:28 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Hey it seems that we tried each one of us to explain it.

I like it when you explain that the system should have refered to the types by their duration to built, and not their costs .

quote:

Those are the 4 main air unit groupings. If you play with Carrier Air Units, then all the carrier air units are lumped into one group.

Here I would like to say that CVP (Carrier Planes) are also separated by Cost.
There are CVP who cost 0 BP, some who cost 1 BP (they are 95% of them), and some who cost 2 BP.

When you want to build CVP, you can choose whether you want to build CVP0, CVP1 or CVP2.
This was this latter point that I wanted to precise.

Yeah, well, during setup they are lumped all together for random selection, undifferentiated by cost.

But, as you state clearly, when you go to build them during production, they are separated by cost. Yet another quirk in the rules.

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Post #: 28
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 11/10/2006 6:49:20 PM   
mlees


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I am not sure, but he might also be asking:

"In the paper/cardboard copy of the game, how do I tell the difference between a Naval bomber, and a Land bomber? (Especially if both cost the same.)"

Generally, it's the way that the silhouette of the aircraft is shown on the counter.

A Land bomber is shown from a "top view". Using post #21, the American A-22 is a Land bomber.

A Naval Bomber is shown with a side view, with the aircraft canted down in a "diving" angle. Back to post #21, the CW Albacore is a Naval bomber.

Note that the computer version of the game will "know" what type of plane is what, and label them for you (and it keep track of the build limits, too).

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 29
RE: Tutorial #6 Air Units - 1/21/2008 1:13:11 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
Here is a new page (it goes last) for the air units tutorial. In RAW this is section 28.




Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to mlees)
Post #: 30
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