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Original CAW for Apple II?

 
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Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/13/2007 3:17:03 PM   
bink

 

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Does anyone else have the original CAW for the Apple II? I still have my copy (though I have not played it in a long time), and must say that the packaging and artwork on that was superb. I miss the frills that used to come with wargames, such as the laminated maps and grease pencils that SSI supplied for its wargames, such as Computer Bismarck and Computer Ambush (great games).
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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/13/2007 3:55:07 PM   
ChuckK


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I've got both Mac and DoS verisons with all the goodies, but you got me me with the Apple II copy. 

_____________________________

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Sunk at Bikini Atoll, '46, after enduring 2nd A-Bomb test
She was a tough Lady!

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/13/2007 7:00:00 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bink

Does anyone else have the original CAW for the Apple II? I still have my copy (though I have not played it in a long time), and must say that the packaging and artwork on that was superb. I miss the frills that used to come with wargames, such as the laminated maps and grease pencils that SSI supplied for its wargames, such as Computer Bismarck and Computer Ambush (great games).

I have the C64 A4 like format packaging CAW.
You're right, the goodies that came with the game were good, I loved that. I also loved the printed manuals with the data of the ships & planes.

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/13/2007 8:06:46 PM   
Panama Red

 

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I dung back into my old games and I too have two copies of the original CAW for the C64. After I play the new CAW, I'm going to have to fire up my C64 and play the original C64 CAW and see the differences.

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/13/2007 8:29:00 PM   
CTB123

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama Red

I dung back into my old games and I too have two copies of the original CAW for the C64. After I play the new CAW, I'm going to have to fire up my C64 and play the original C64 CAW and see the differences.


I played hours on my C64. It is probably my favorite game for that system. I would love to hear your impression of the differences. I keep thinking I remember a closer zoom level than the new release has, and I would watch strikes move from hex to hex, with the tension building with each hex. It may just be a difference of screen resolution though.

Tony

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/14/2007 3:49:47 AM   
jcrohio

 

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I found a copy of the apple CAW on line - kinda neat to see.

Anyone know how to get a copy of the old documentation? Would be an interesting read.

Jack

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/14/2007 6:47:13 AM   
JungleJim99


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Yes - I had the Apple IIe versions of CAW, Halls of Montezuma, Battlefront, and Europe Ablaze.  Many, many Good Times 

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/15/2007 6:09:44 AM   
JD Walter


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Get this - I actually still have my copy of SSI's old "Torpedo Fire" (1981), where they gave you a protractor to calculate the bearing and angle to target to launch your torpedoes.

It is to this day the only time I have ever used trigonometry to play a computer game. My girlfriend saw me playing it one time and asked me what the computer was for, if I was doing all the math.

I still can't answer.

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/15/2007 7:22:39 AM   
bink

 

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I have Torpedo Fire too!!!!!

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/19/2007 1:25:39 AM   
JD Walter


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Hi bink,

Amazing. I'm surprised SSI actually sold 2 copies of the thing.

But then again, SSI's first three published tactical games ("Computer Bismarck", "Computer Ambush (1st ed.)" and "Computer Air Combat", each 1980-81) were all direct adaptations of plotted si-move boardgames like SPI's "Sniper" or BattleLine's "Air Force", where you plotted your movement & fire, and the computer resolved the end-results for you. They were products of their era...

It was Gary Grigsby who realized the potential of the Apple II and coded a visual interface with a cursor-style movement system (i.e., a cursor representing one's position) in "Guadacanal Campaign" (SSI, 1982). With that, the revolution was on. For this alone, I consider him of of the great innovators & contributors in our hobby, and have always had great respect for his designs.

(NB: Paul Murray with "The Warp Factor" (SSI, 1981) also coded a visual interface for movement at this time, so perhaps it's a shared credit for the progress to today's games.)

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/19/2007 1:52:46 AM   
MarkShot

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChuckK
I've got both Mac and DoS verisons with all the goodies, but you got me me with the Apple II copy. 


I just ordered CCAW. Besides the games themselves are there any mods, utilties, or scenarios which I should look at downloading? Thanks.

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/19/2007 2:13:22 AM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Def Zep

Hi bink,

Amazing. I'm surprised SSI actually sold 2 copies of the thing.

But then again, SSI's first three published tactical games ("Computer Bismarck", "Computer Ambush (1st ed.)" and "Computer Air Combat", each 1980-81) were all direct adaptations of plotted si-move boardgames like SPI's "Sniper" or BattleLine's "Air Force", where you plotted your movement & fire, and the computer resolved the end-results for you. They were products of their era...

It was Gary Grigsby who realized the potential of the Apple II and coded a visual interface with a cursor-style movement system (i.e., a cursor representing one's position) in "Guadacanal Campaign" (SSI, 1982). With that, the revolution was on. For this alone, I consider him of of the great innovators & contributors in our hobby, and have always had great respect for his designs.

(NB: Paul Murray with "The Warp Factor" (SSI, 1981) also coded a visual interface for movement at this time, so perhaps it's a shared credit for the progress to today's games.)


Good to give them credit for what they achieved for the Apple but then again when they were released, Chris Crawford had already released Eastern Front for the Atari 800 (my first computer wargame). Amazingly, all input was done via joystick. I think he deserves to be mentioned amongst the pioneers. Although I did stop playing Eastern Front once I had a few SSI games in my library. Played the heck out of Carrier Force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(computer_game)


I only currently have 2 copies of CaW (PC & Mac) but over the years I've purchased it for Apple, C64, PC (2X) & Mac.


_____________________________


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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/19/2007 7:30:12 AM   
BoredStiff

 

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quote:

Played the heck out of Carrier Force.


My first computer wargame, around 1985 for me, it was awesome. I even hotseated it against a friend a few times.



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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/19/2007 7:56:47 AM   
bink

 

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Def Zep,

I was a big fan of Computer Ambush (particularly the 2nd ed.) - so this was based on Sniper? What was Computer Bismarck based on?

Your description is a bit misleading for those unfamiliar with the games, since the computer also had AI, and the super tactical scale of Computer Ambush (individual soldiers) was great. I played more of this game than any other since.

Because of the tactical scale, a lot more seemed to happen in each turn. For example, soldiers moved more squares than units in other games (such as Squad Battles). You decided how to storm each individual building, not just which village to attack. For these reasons I found the game very engrossing.

I am still waiting for a modern version.

Bink

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/20/2007 12:37:15 AM   
JD Walter


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Hi bink, mjk428

Computer Ambush: Yes. On the old GEnie BBS, one of the Billings brothers said the designer, Ed Williger, liked SPI's Sniper. It was one of his favorite games and an inspiration for CA. He wanted a computer opponent to play against solitaire when he couldn't find anyone.

The more successful Computer Ambush was the 2nd edition from SSI (1982), which took fuller advantage of the Apple II's capabilities, re-developed by Larry Strawser (rules) & Kendall Whitesell (who did the coding). It had a very competent AI, in part because the playfield was limited and only the German side was run by the computer. This allowed Mr. Whitesell to script setups for the Germans, which made the scenarios quite challenging. IIRC, the first CA had a rather limited AI (which basically just moved the Germans towards you), since it was cartridge-tape based. I played a lot of that before I upgraded my Apple to a II-plus with a diskette drive - big bucks right out of college!


Eastern Front: Another innovative game, and Chris Crawford was indeed one of the early pioneers of our hobby. He too certainly contributed to the interface we all use today. Good to remember his efforts, as well!

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/20/2007 7:54:25 AM   
bink

 

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Def Zep,

Are you sure the AI was redone is Computer Ambush 2nd edition?  I thought it was recoded (maybe just compiled?) rather than run in interpretive basic, as it was originally released.  I had both versions and they both ran on disk - AFAIK, SSI never released a tape version of CA for the Apple II.

Even Computer Bismarck was released on disk, again AFAIK never on tape.  Here is a link with a photo of the box:
http://gotcha.classicgaming.gamespy.com/ssi.htm

I would love to find out more historical info on CA, but there is not much out there.

Bink

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/21/2007 6:54:12 AM   
JD Walter


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Hi bink,

Very nice website you linked. Enjoyed reading a bit about SSI's history!

I don't know if SSI ever released CA (or any of its titles, for that matter) on cassette tape. Indeed, my copy of Computer Bismarck was on diskette, and it was SSI's first publication. (Still have it after all these years.)

However, on the old GEnie BBS, I remember one of the Billings'es talking about the prototype of CA. It originated on cassette, not uncommon in those days, since 5.25" disks were relatively new. It was in basic, and ran pretty slow. Limited capacity forced code to be pretty tight and to the point. For that reason, they recommended moving it to diskette. But the basic code compilation remained. In those posts, Joel (I think it was, IIRC) talked about some of the changes the 2nd edition had. One of them was an improved AI, which he credited to Ken Whitesell. My impression was that Ken had taken Ed's original code and tweaked it to run faster and add some additional move & search/LOS routines for the Germans. (It was in a thread that asked why owners of the first version might want to order an upgrade to a 2nd ed. diskette. Believe me, complaints about why one should have to order a second version of a game he'd already bought didn't start here at Matrix! )

I played the original CA, but never bought it. It was too simplistic for my (then-) taste; I preferred more involved games like AH's SL and (on the Apple) SSG's Reach for the Stars. (But I did love SSI's Computer Quarterback, mainly because I could change the default numbers assigned to plays and call in audibles against my opponent with the selector dial on my Apple II controller. Great fun!)

When I heard about the 2nd edition of CA, I decided to try it again and got hooked. The game ran much faster, especially when resolving movement and LOS checks, and it was a great hotseat game hth. Much faster than Sniper, and one didn't have to spend time plotting moves on a greenpad. Good gaming!

Computer Bismarck:

There wasn't much ever posted on GEnie about Computer Bismarck, at least by the time I got a modem and joined. (Probably because it had been superceded by SSI's "second wave" of better-produced titles in 1981: Grigsby's Guad Campaign, Dan Bunten's Computer QB, Paul Murray's Warp Factor, etc.). But it's resemblance to AH's "Bismarck" was clear. The map covered the same area; It even included the special VP's for damaging convoy WS8B, which was in a variant published in the AH General for their boardgame that added the convoys to the countermix to expand the scope and add a bit more history. (The Bismarck was now out to sink merchant shipping, instead of just fighting 1 or 2 British ships and then trying to make it back to Brest to win on VP's.) If I remember, Joel Billings first tried to interest Tom Shaw at AH to publish it (when AH was first thinking about making computer-game versions of its games), and got ignored, prompting him to form SSI instead, just to get CB out on the shelves!

Too bad SSI's not around (except as a Ubisoft badge) anymore. They were cutting-edge, and every year brought a brand-new wave of games that just kept getting better and better. Matrix is definitely their spiritual successor, though. I'm glad to see they're adding all kinds of different genres and complexity-levels to their line-up this year. Keeps things fresh, and lets me buy a huge variety of playstyles.

< Message edited by Def Zep -- 6/21/2007 6:56:20 AM >

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/21/2007 3:41:18 PM   
bink

 

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Def Zep,

Do you have copies of those BBS transcripts, or would they be archived anywhere?  I would be interesting in reading all the details.

Glad to find someone who enjoyed Computer Ambush as much as I did.

Regards,

bink

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/22/2007 3:15:43 AM   
JD Walter


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Hi bink,

Unfortunately not. I've seen archives of other newsgroups (Usenet and Yahoo groups), but GEnie seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur.

Would be interesting to see them again, though! It's been years since I read them, and it'd be a real trip down memory lane.

I still remember getting my first modem: 300 baud, on a green-phosphor screen. I was absolutely fascinated that there were other wargamers out there in cyberspace, posting their thoughts on games I had myself, and the designers joining them! For a while, GEnie was the place for "conflict simulations", too. Practically every wargame popped up for discussion there. You could read until 2 or 3 in the morning, and have a whole 'nother page of threads the next evening!

< Message edited by Def Zep -- 6/22/2007 3:17:51 AM >

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/22/2007 3:34:56 AM   
JD Walter


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Computer Ambush:

I really liked the different weapons each soldier had, and the write-ups the rulebook gave them.

My favorite was "Big Ol" Hoss, because he reminded me of one of my gaming friends down at UVA. I also liked Dieter Dusel, because you could make shots with his 98K nobody else could. In the Church Defense scenario, I'd stick him in 43,46 and he could pick people off coming out of building F11 or the Government Offices. I could then move into those with a section and flank the town center monument at F1. That usually let me last the timepoints and win the engagement.

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/22/2007 5:35:23 AM   
pad152

 

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Apple copies of CAW, don't make me look in the basement, I think there is am Apple IIGS down there and god knows what else.

Computer Air Combat - the only SSI wargame that had a expansion disk.

Computer Bismarck the first computer wargame from SSI, I remember the original for the TRS-80, on cassette tape? Yes boys and girls before DVD's, before CD's, before 3-1/2" floppy disks, before 5-1/4" floppy disks, we used cassette tapes, and what a pain in the ass they were! Before that we used paper tape, before that we used the switches on the front panel and entered programs in hex code.

The Good o'l days, I don't think so.


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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 6/22/2007 5:48:59 AM   
JD Walter


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Remember those well, pad152

Ran many a cassette tape game on my beloved "Trash 80" before I saved up for the "modern, advanced" Apple II with a 5.25" floppy disk drive.

Coded in assembler on my school mainframe, but never was good at compiling. Always got a punchcard out of sequence...

And don't forget Computer Baseball! Had the 1981 and 1982 teams disks after SSI put that one out...Played lots of games replicating a season.

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 8/8/2007 6:12:13 AM   
LarryDS

 

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quote:

Hi bink, mjk428

Computer Ambush: Yes. On the old GEnie BBS, one of the Billings brothers said the designer, Ed Williger, liked SPI's Sniper. It was one of his favorite games and an inspiration for CA. He wanted a computer opponent to play against solitaire when he couldn't find anyone.

The more successful Computer Ambush was the 2nd edition from SSI (1982), which took fuller advantage of the Apple II's capabilities, re-developed by Larry Strawser (rules) & Kendall Whitesell (who did the coding). It had a very competent AI, in part because the playfield was limited and only the German side was run by the computer. This allowed Mr. Whitesell to script setups for the Germans, which made the scenarios quite challenging. IIRC, the first CA had a rather limited AI (which basically just moved the Germans towards you), since it was cartridge-tape based. I played a lot of that before I upgraded my Apple to a II-plus with a diskette drive - big bucks right out of college!


Hi Def Zep, bink, and mjk428,

This is Larry Strawser. I know its been a couple of months since the last reply to this thread, but I just became a member of MatrixGames. It is true that I wrote the rule book for CA 2nd edition, but I also did the coding. Ken Whitesell got me started on the project. He and I were in the Air Force stationed at Biloxi, Mississippi where we taught communications-computer programming. We coded most things in machine code (octal) in those days -- assembly language was a high order language for us! Ken bought an Apple II before I did and he was a big fan of CA, 1st ed. I tried the game on his computer, but was turned off by how LONG the "resolution phase" took (as others have noted, CA 1st ed. was interpreted BASIC). Ken apparently discussed this with SSI and Joel Billings asked if he wanted to write an assembly language version. Ken told me about it and we became "partners." Ken stayed with the project until about halfway through coding the "order entry" phase. Then I moved to Colorado and Ken decided he wasn't interested anymore. Thus, I had to purchase my own Apple II and I completed the project eventually -- but not fast enough to satisfy Joel! :-)

Ken left the Air Force a year or two later, but I made a career out of it and retired just two years ago. I've coded some fairly sophisticated programs (quantum mechanical computational chemistry, for example), but some of the routines I coded for CA 2nd edition are among the best coding I ever did. The necessity to squeeze everything in the resolution phase into 48K of memory required quite a few tricks. The line of sight (LOS) routine is probably the cleverest bit of coding I've ever done. The code had to be compact, but it also had to be FAST. That is, since the "command control" function depended on the LOS each soldier had to each of his squadron mates, the computational time exploded as an N to the N problem. I often found myself conducting a "trade space" between clock cycles and bytes of memory -- people don't code like that any more! By the way, the Apple version used the Apple DOS and the "Initialization Phase" was written in BASIC, but every part of the Atari version was written in Assembly and I wrote a primitive DOS specific for the game (the Atari version came out about a year after the Apple version, but that's another story).

Its gratifying to see that at least a few people still remember the game and liked playing it. Yes, the game certainly had an "AI" built in (and Ken had NOTHING to do with any of it), and NO, it was not recompiled! I can't even guess how HUGE the compiled code would have been (even if a compiler existed in the early 1980s that could have done the job), but I know it would have been too big. However, I will now admit, the computer was a tough opponent at the most challenging level, because it "cheated." That is, at that level, the computer opponent had all "10s" for capabilities, his weapons never jammed, never ran out of ammunition, and he could even "heal" over time -- something the human opponent could never do. Nevertheless, the computer played by all the other rules, so it could be beat -- but if you took an "average" squad into battle, it was a tough go.

I built quite a bit of "debug" code as I went along. I had to strip most of it out after the code was completed due to memory constraints, but I was able to leave in one tiny bit of code that displayed the "terrain multiplier" from one point to another (FSxxyyL) at the novice level -- I used this to make sure the LOS routine worked as it should, for example, as I streamlined the code both for speed and size.

In any event, I have often thought over the years of writing CA 3rd edition. I have already designed the opening scene. Remember that cheesy "tune" at the beginning of the game? The opening screen of CA 3rd edition would look exactly as the it did on the Apple version (a black and white line drawing), then that stupid "tune" would play, followed by a pause. Then the sound of a mortar round coming into the battle space would be heard. When it exploded, the screen would "split open" onto a 1,000,000-color, chaotic, three-dimensional battle field with "real" gun fire, grenades, screams, etc. Anyone interested? :-)

LarryDS

(in reply to JD Walter)
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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 8/8/2007 6:31:58 AM   
LarryDS

 

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quote:

Are you sure the AI was redone is Computer Ambush 2nd edition? I thought it was recoded (maybe just compiled?) rather than run in interpretive basic, as it was originally released. I had both versions and they both ran on disk - AFAIK, SSI never released a tape version of CA for the Apple II.

Even Computer Bismarck was released on disk, again AFAIK never on tape. Here is a link with a photo of the box:
http://gotcha.classicgaming.gamespy.com/ssi.htm

I would love to find out more historical info on CA, but there is not much out there.


Hi bink,

This is Larry Strawser -- I programmed CA 2nd edition and wrote the rule book. What would you like to know? :-)

Larry

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 8/8/2007 5:50:21 PM   
bink

 

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Larry,

I think a new version of Computer Ambush would be a great idea!!!

Bink

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 8/8/2007 8:33:08 PM   
MarkShot

 

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Man, you guys go way back.

I remember playing Pong at a friends house on an old TV in the basement. In Junior High, I remember playing Lunar Landar in BASIC from punch tape on a PDP-8, I think. I did a little BASIC then.

Later, in college after dropping out for a while (originally Bio-Chem), I went back to school and majored in a new discipline, Computer Science. Began my programming on punched cards.

To think that I am sitting here now typing on my own personal computer that easily outperformed the multi-million dollar IBM mainframe batch processing system that was the workhouse behind my undergrad degree. Mind blowing!!!

Some of my first professional programming was done assembly/machine language; 8 bit, 16 bit, ... overlays before virtual storage. A truly forgotten art!

:)

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 8/9/2007 4:29:24 AM   
LarryDS

 

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quote:

Man, you guys go way back.

I remember playing Pong at a friends house on an old TV in the basement. In Junior High, I remember playing Lunar Landar in BASIC from punch tape on a PDP-8, I think. I did a little BASIC then.

Later, in college after dropping out for a while (originally Bio-Chem), I went back to school and majored in a new discipline, Computer Science. Began my programming on punched cards.

To think that I am sitting here now typing on my own personal computer that easily outperformed the multi-million dollar IBM mainframe batch processing system that was the workhouse behind my undergrad degree. Mind blowing!!!

Some of my first professional programming was done assembly/machine language; 8 bit, 16 bit, ... overlays before virtual storage. A truly forgotten art!


MarkShot,

CA 2nd edition was published for the Apple II in 1983; the Atari and C-64 version came out about a year later (and a Mac version followed that). I never programmed on a PDP-8, but did quite a bit of assembly language programming on a PDP-11 (wrote a pretty fair version of missile command!).

There are still a few people coding in machine language for embedded systems. But very few applications need to worry about either clock cycles or memory constraints anymore!

Interestingly, my PhD is in biochemistry! I had to learn computer programming (FORTRAN was my first language) in order to perform my data analysis in a timely manner. Later I taught myself assembly language. That was the only language I used for programming on 8-bit machines.

LarryDS

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 8/9/2007 8:38:29 AM   
RSGodfrey

 

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Mark

Your remark about programming on punched cards invokes memories of my experience as an undergrad in Economics only able to submit a single regression run a day. Invariably there would be a mistake in punching that required a correction.

The econometric packages today in terms of speed and analytical power are awesome!

Richard

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RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 9/12/2007 8:21:07 PM   
ibeam81

 

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This thread brings back a lot of good memories. I've actually gone back and played a few of the "Golden Oldies" with emulators, since my Apple II is long gone. The game play is still interesting, although of course the graphics (and text too) pale in comparison to modern games.

Oh the pleasure of punch cards, machine language, and assemblers. Fortran was a godsend.

(in reply to RSGodfrey)
Post #: 29
RE: Original CAW for Apple II? - 9/12/2007 11:33:36 PM   
martxyz

 

Posts: 194
Joined: 1/29/2005
From: Broughton, Northants, UK
Status: offline
I first programmed on an IBM 360/67 (I think) in PL1! Then Basic, Fortran, Algol 60. and finally Z80 assembler.  Can't remember a blessed thing about any of them!!  

However, I do rememeber how much I just HATED punch cards, waiting, waiting, waiting only to next day discover the program kicked out as I'd left a comman out of line 62 or something!  

Happy days.

Martin

(in reply to ibeam81)
Post #: 30
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