Is smoke effective?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> Is smoke effective?

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Is smoke effective? - 3/18/2002 2:43:35 AM

neofit

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As the Subject says...

For instance in the Stalingrad campaign, 4th scenario, assault on Gumrak. There is a ravine going SW-NE between my troops and the objectives, with plenty of troops behind it. Now I decide to screen it with smoke, while I send all my mobile troops on a wide hook to take the city from the other side. At the same time, under the cover of smoke, two platoons of inf with some aux APCs will charge the ravine. Seems that it needs to be cleared anyway else they will hamper my flanking troops when these reach the city on the other side.

[Bryan shamelessly put some aux recon units so close to the ravine that they get slaughtered whenever they move one hex :) ]

I have put 3 turns worth of smoke to hide my troops from the ravine, from 4x75mm and 3x81mm tubes, but this seems to not be enough. The enemy sees my units as if I don't lay any smoke, and his accuracy doesn't seem to be impaired.
When a recon unit pops its own smoke to add to the ambient one, it triggers op-fire from the exact opposite direction from the smoke, and deadly accurate too.
I already lost about 7 units at 10 hexes from the ravine to accurate fire frome the other side of the smoke... [edited]

What am I doing wrong? Are 75 and 81mm calibers too small to lay effective smoke? Or the game cheats and his units are not affected by smoke as mine are?

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- 3/18/2002 2:56:11 AM

Penetrator

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I think larger calibres are better. Also, if visibility is good, you need to have more than one smoked hex to block LOS.

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- 3/18/2002 3:02:38 AM

neofit

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Penetrator
[B]I think larger calibres are better. Also, if visibility is good, you need to have more than one smoked hex to block LOS. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, visibility is good in this scenario, but after 3 turns of shelling, the smoke screen is 2-3 hexes deep in many areas. I agree it might not completely block LOS though, yet I thought that AI fire effectiveness would be drastically lower. Heh, when I play the Russians, they can't hit the broad side of a barn at point-blank range, without any smoke whatsoever :)

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- 3/18/2002 4:19:49 AM

Drex

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That is unusual for arty smoke not to be effective.as long as you cover enough hexes as Penetrator says, that should be enough. I know that smoke put down by the infantry unit usually does not block LOS and actually draws Op fire, but tank smoke is effective. This doesn't answer your question, but you must have an unusual situation.

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- 3/18/2002 6:06:32 AM

tracer

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I've heard that the 'magic number' is 22. If visibility is at or above that, you need two infantry smoke grenades or two hexes of trees to block LOS. Arty/tank smoke should work with one shot though. What is the visibility setting of the battle in question?

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- 3/18/2002 6:25:41 AM

neofit

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by tracer
[B]I've heard that the 'magic number' is 22. If visibility is at or above that, you need two infantry smoke grenades or two hexes of trees to block LOS. Arty/tank smoke should work with one shot though. What is the visibility setting of the battle in question? [/B][/QUOTE]
Visibility is 19.

I got suspiscious when a recon unit entered the first of 2 hexes of smoke, got 1 casualty from an MG on the other side. I popped smoke on the next hex (adding the recon unit smoke to the arty one), next thing I know is the recon getting wiped out by the same MG fire now firing through a double-smoked hex. I am not sure if 1 or more arty smoke shells had fallen onto that hex the previous turn, but I guess one should be enough. Or maybe op-fire reacts on a soldier raising his arm to throw the smoke grenade, i.e. in fact hits before it lands?

The accuracy of these Soviet forces is still surprising... They get a hit every shot (rarely on the 2nd), through 1-2 hexes of smoke, at a range of 10-15. The vehicles can't even gather speed, they are knocked out on the first hex with op-fire. I know where the enemy fire comes from, I replayed the turn many times with max zoom out.

It might also be bad luck I think.

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- 3/18/2002 6:36:47 AM

Bing

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I've run across those Superheroes of the Rodina myself. The ones I ran into were Guards units that refused to die or fall back, either one. So I had to edit them down in the preferences, until a point blank 105 HE had at least nominal effect upon them.

Think I actually had to get down to about 70% ot 75% of normal - something like that.

Those guys ate nails for breakfast.

Bing

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- 3/18/2002 10:18:24 AM

BryanMelvin

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This smoke subject is a bit foggy :D

What you see is how the smoke function works in the game system. Sometimes - it blocks and other times it does not. I think it has to do with weather conditions and that battle was set on 2 - a mild breeze effect.

Paul Vebber can explain it better than I can. Also, in Gumrak battle - their are Russian Units deployed to see along the German route of advance ;)

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- 3/18/2002 10:54:45 AM

Drex

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Of course! It could be wind. How do you tell what the wind factor is? Obviously a good breeze would render smoke - any smoke - a useless gesture. Chalk it up to bad weather conditions.

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- 3/18/2002 7:49:31 PM

neofit

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by BryanMelvin
[B]Also, in Gumrak battle - their are Russian Units deployed to see along the German route of advance ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
I thought about this. I was kind of confident that I had smoked all the possible enemy gun emplacements like trees and terrain folds, then was surprised to lose another APC from fire coming from open terrain :)
So it may be that some enemy units that are not screened by smoke do spot my approaching units, and the ones that do fire through smoke actually perform area fire ('Z' key). Yet is looks like very accurate area fire from 37mm's and Maxims.

I guess I would have had more luck if I could move slowly, but with the 14-15 turns limits on scenarios most battles turn into RTS-type rushes. I have read quite afew posts on this board about the effectiveness of recon troops and smoke, and that recon moving 1 hex per turn is virtually invisible. Yet I have no clue on how this slow recon tactic can be used unless we have like 40-60 turns scenarios (and why higher HQ would consider my mission a failure if I took the objectives 1-2 hours later, but with virtually no losses instead if rusing in and losing half ;) ).

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- 3/18/2002 7:55:10 PM

neofit

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drex
[B]Of course! It could be wind. How do you tell what the wind factor is? Obviously a good breeze would render smoke - any smoke - a useless gesture. Chalk it up to bad weather conditions. [/B][/QUOTE]

Might be wind too. I noticed that a falling smoke shell does not put a thick white cloud on the hex, visually it looks more like thin fumes, as I get after regular HE fire on the hex (and I AM sure that I asked for a smoke mission :) ). Even when a unit pops its own smoke I get thin fumes graphics instead of the regular thick white cloud.

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- 3/19/2002 5:50:21 AM

neofit

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On the same subject, an quote from the Combat Mission manual, page 106:

"Designer's Note: Infantry smoke grenades, a source of smoke commonly found in other WWII gamesn is not available in CM. Our research shows little credible evidence that this type of smoke was used at the squad level in WWII for anything beyond signaling purposes."

I wonder who is right...

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Post #: 12

Smoke grenades? - 3/19/2002 8:38:31 AM

Drex

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This has been mentioned before. Smoke grenades should probably be eliminated but its been in the game so long that the uproar would be tremendous. and I'm as guilty as the next guy.

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Post #: 13