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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> TOAW III Support >> Reload?

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Reload? - 6/30/2006 10:53:54 PM

Dr. Foo

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Just a general tech support question, I could not find anything about this in the manual.

I opened a PBEM file from my opponent and I received a message stating that "your opponent may have reloaded more than once," or something like that. On other turns I heard a buzz during the play back I assume this was where my opponent hit the undo button.

Is undo the same as reload? Or is reload saying that they opened the file and then closed it only to reopen it to replay their turn?

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RE: Reload? - 6/30/2006 11:04:21 PM

JAMiAM

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Undo is not the same as a reload. Undo is an action within the turn "taking back" the immediately previous action. Reload, is loading a SAL or PBL that has already been played on from. Whether this is because the player's system crashed, or he made an error and opened the wrong file, or is exploiting the system or is a "false positive", is not determined.

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RE: Reload? - 6/30/2006 11:07:39 PM

Dr. Foo

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What I figure they are doing is saving the game under a different name and then reopening the original file to replay thier turn, because they did not like the results.

Nice touch to put that in there so the game knows if it has been reloaded.

Are the buzz sounds during playback undo's?

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RE: Reload? - 6/30/2006 11:31:28 PM

panzerpelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

Are the buzz sounds during playback undo's?

Yes.

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RE: Reload? - 6/30/2006 11:57:53 PM

Industrial

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Well, I don't have TOAW III but I can already say that i hate that 'reload' feature, if it is somehow interpreted as the other player cheating. I for example save and reload every scenario countless of times, without doing it with the purpose of cheating! I save/reload so often because I usually dont have the timne to play a turn in one go, I always save after every combat turn, as it helps me to later analyze my progress and for AARs, I would estimate that i have saved/reloaded my current Plan Martin game about 20-30 times for each turn I do!

Am i a cheater because of that? No, but somebody might accuse me of it because maybe they don't really understand the feature.

Same with Undos, they can be used to cheat (rail repair failed? undo and try again), but they can also have fully legitimate uses, like you wanted to move one unit but accidently moved the entire stack.

really, these features are not needed in the game! If somebody wants to cheat, he will find a way to bypass these checks, all they do is that honest gamers are accused of cheating, simply because the game makes it sound so suspicious. Ohhhh, your enemy has reloaded his game, better expect the worst!

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RE: Reload? - 7/1/2006 12:01:30 AM

JAMiAM

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You can save, and reload, without generating the reload message. What you cannot do is to save, reload earlier save to change combat results, without generating the reload message.

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RE: Reload? - 7/1/2006 12:10:05 AM

Industrial

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And what if after opening turn 6, I reload turn 5, because I want to check my losses/strategic situation back than to compare them to my losses/situation this turn?
What if I have two games with the same scenario ongoing?
What if I only accidently reloaded an older game save, immediately recognize my error and load the current save?

To make it short, why is this feature actually needed?

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RE: Reload? - 7/1/2006 1:58:13 AM

Dr. Foo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Industrial

Well, I don't have TOAW III but I can already say that i hate that 'reload' feature, if it is somehow interpreted as the other player cheating. I for example save and reload every scenario countless of times, without doing it with the purpose of cheating!

Same with Undos, they can be used to cheat (rail repair failed? undo and try again), but they can also have fully legitimate uses, like you wanted to move one unit but accidently moved the entire stack.

I can live with a few undo's as people do make mistakes I think that players should agree on a set number of undo's per turn and no more, then again as people do make mistakes it can be seen as the commander on the ground misinterpreted your orders and moved the entire division rather than one regiment. In real war it would be hard to take that back and you just have to live with those mistakes.

But the reload thing, so many things could have happened, and you are correct it could have been for perfectly legitimate reasons, such as not enough time to play the entire turn.

I think from now on I will discuss reloads and undo's with perspective opponents before we begin as to avoid any unfortunate misunderstandings.

< Message edited by Dr. Foo -- 7/1/2006 5:03:30 AM >

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RE: Reload? - 7/2/2006 3:23:17 AM

a white rabbit

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..1.30hours into my latest game, power cut, i'd played beyond the save by 1hour , arghhh, so i guess my opponent gets a reload message

..moral, save frequently and explain the difficulties of living on the edge of civilisation (Ph not New York )

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RE: Reload? - 7/8/2006 8:17:15 PM

Kru

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I believe that it is neccessary to discuss with your opponent the rules before a game commence. Some of them might have nothing against undo or reloads.
From my experience, during my second turn my opponent notified 9 reloads, and as far as I remember I always played the same way. And there weren't any others before. I wonder how this time suddenly 9 appeared. I save & load normally many times before and after battle resolutions.
It is understandable that perhaps I used different file names, but I still wonder how those reloads might affect a save if everytime you do it a game quits automatically. What will happen if I load a different save after returning to TOAW game?

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RE: Reload? - 7/8/2006 9:42:58 PM

Okimaw

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You know, with everything that's said about the reload issue, cheating wasa problem in earlier versions. Who are these cheats? Should there be an "offender" registry? I play against guys I talked to on the forums for a while and some challenges off the various sites and I wouldn't suspect them of it. Wargaming is an honorable hobby and if someone wants to cheat they should just play Elmer, he can't do anything about it, at least not at the moment

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RE: Reload? - 7/9/2006 1:04:03 AM

ralphtricky

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kru

I believe that it is neccessary to discuss with your opponent the rules before a game commence. Some of them might have nothing against undo or reloads.
From my experience, during my second turn my opponent notified 9 reloads, and as far as I remember I always played the same way. And there weren't any others before. I wonder how this time suddenly 9 appeared. I save & load normally many times before and after battle resolutions.
It is understandable that perhaps I used different file names, but I still wonder how those reloads might affect a save if everytime you do it a game quits automatically. What will happen if I load a different save after returning to TOAW game?

As long as you always loaded the last game that you saved, no message should have been generated. If you loaded an earlier round (not an eariler turn but a save from within that turn, even if you quit, it would still count as a reload.

Ralph

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RE: Reload? - 7/9/2006 1:08:11 AM

ralphtricky

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quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..1.30hours into my latest game, power cut, i'd played beyond the save by 1hour , arghhh, so i guess my opponent gets a reload message

..moral, save frequently and explain the difficulties of living on the edge of civilisation (Ph not New York )

I'm hoping that the patch after next should have a quicksave key that will save as 'auto.sal' but not exit.

I ran your location through Google Earth. You are on the third coconut tree on the left, aren't you?

Ralph

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RE: Reload? - 10/22/2008 11:18:59 AM

meatshield

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Can we open End of Turn save games or will that trigger the reloaded message?

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RE: Reload? - 10/23/2008 1:46:51 AM

Veers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatshield

Can we open End of Turn save games or will that trigger the reloaded message?

Under the impressionthat it will trigger the reload message. Be glad to have a diffinitive on that, though. Hopefully James or Ralph will chime in.

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RE: Reload? - 10/27/2008 1:56:10 AM

meatshield

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After testing this with Veers, do�not�open your End of Turn save games of your most recently played turn. Every time you do that, it will generate a reloaded message each time you do it.

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RE: Reload? - 11/1/2008 2:19:40 AM

macgregor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatshield

After testing this with Veers, do�not�open your End of Turn save games of your most recently played turn. Every time you do that, it will generate a reloaded message each time you do it.

Fascinating! So this is what undoubtedly happened in our game which I stopped playing, believing you had cheated(9 times-c'mon). it is also probably why Sapper32 unexpectedly discontinued our game on turn 107

So what you are saying then is that it is impossible to tell if the person is cheating simply by this message. This needs to be announced, though it also means that the safeguard is useless. Now wait a minute! If i have a .pbl on hand I should have no reason to open the END OF TURN .sal. Are you saying it sends this message according to how many times you may have looked at the .sal while waiting for your .pbl?

< Message edited by macgregor -- 11/1/2008 2:21:21 AM >

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RE: Reload? - 11/5/2008 6:32:26 PM

meatshield

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What happens is if you complete a turn and start browsing the end of turn save of the most recent turn you played, everytime you do it generates a reloaded message. There are plenty of reasons why people want to look at EoT save of their most recent game:
- write an AAR
- plan out subsequent turns
- had an unexpectedly early turn end and want to view the state your units were left in (eg dug in, dug out)
- need a TOAW fix and you have no turns to process because everyone is taking 2 weeks to get their turn back to you *ahem*.

So if you have a game that takes a long time between turns and open up the EOT save every so often to browse the landscape to keep things fresh in your mind, you will generate a reloaded message every time. So obviously one should not look at the EoT save, which is not stated anywhere in any of the manuals that I can see.

Perhaps next time you should actually ask me about it rather than just deciding to cut the game off without saying anything at all. But that's just my thinking on that.

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RE: Reload? - 11/12/2008 5:32:05 AM

meatshield

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Ok well, I'll scratch our game off my list. Thanks for completely wasting my time on that one, btw. The lack of courtesy of even an e-mail is something you ought to remedy if you expect to be able to find opponents to play - something you seem to have a hard time doing.

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RE: Reload? - 11/12/2008 6:33:17 PM

ColinWright

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

What I figure they are doing is saving the game under a different name and then reopening the original file to replay thier turn, because they did not like the results.

It'll happen when you play me. That'll be because I didn't have time to finish the turn before I went to bed or whatever.

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RE: Reload? - 11/12/2008 6:46:45 PM

ColinWright

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Industrial

And what if after opening turn 6, I reload turn 5, because I want to check my losses/strategic situation back than to compare them to my losses/situation this turn?
What if I have two games with the same scenario ongoing?
What if I only accidently reloaded an older game save, immediately recognize my error and load the current save?

To make it short, why is this feature actually needed?

The game as it develops reflects the concerns of those actually on the development team. One of them is particularly concerned to stop cheating.

I doubt it can be done -- and I don't see the point anyway. To my mind, if you try to make it impossible to cheat -- but fail -- then you've merely legitimized cheating. Someone now gets to think of themselves as 'clever' rather than merely dishonest.

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 11/12/2008 6:50:40 PM >

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