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Sleazy Airplane Tactics - 11/12/2008 12:57:13 AM   
VictorInThePacific

 

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These tactics work in the game, but may not make sense in real life.

1) None of the Soviet AA missiles function at VH altitude, although I am not sure how, exactly, this is handled. Only a few NATO AA missiles function at VH altitude. Most modern airplanes in Harpoon can fly VH. So if I want to achieve air superiority, I can fly my fighters around at VH and never get hit, picking off the enemy airplanes at my leisure. If my opponent was doing this, one obvious response would be to go VH myself, which might lead to some sort of stalemate. I don't think the AI can do this, though. This tactic would seem to be at least partly reasonable in real life, and indeed the Harpoon "Battlebook" actually suggests it.

Does anyone know if this is appropriate in real life or is it just a sleazy gaming tactic?

2) Similar to the above, many naval or land-based SAMs do not function at VH altitude. So I can fly my bombers or attack airplanes around at VH, dropping iron bombs, cluster bombs, spitballs, whatever, with pinpoint accuracy from very high up. This is certainly appropriate for B-52s but NOT for A-6 Intruders.

For example, in GIUK (Med. Opposed Convoy), the Soviet SAG has SA-N-1, SA-N-4, SA-N-7, and SA-N-9 SAMs, none of which reach to VH. So I could, in principle use this tactic, although I have a different solution.

I have never actually used this because I generally use stand-off weapons, which have no cost or ammunition limit (another sleazy tactic).

3) Some fighters have only short-range missiles, where "short" is relative to the opposing missiles. Most Soviet fighters fall into this category, as do the Harrier and the early F-16. In real life, if such airplanes are used in an air superiority role, they would need to get past the opposing long-range missiles. One way to reduce the number of opposing long-range missiles is to hit them with your airplanes, which is sometimes done in real life. A better way is to avoid the long-range missiles by maneuver. Unfortunately, the scale of Harpoon does not allow this to be simulated in detail.

This is what I would like do if all I have available is fighters with short-range missiles: Fly my fighters towards the enemy fighters, threatening to launch missiles (or, really, try to get into a superior dogfight position). If the enemy fighters launch missiles, turn and flee using afterburner (or really, evade by maneuver and try to get into a superior dogfight position). The problem is that, in the game, my fighters simply cannot turn around fast enough, and maybe they shouldn't reasonably be allowed to.

What I actually do is this: Park my fighters in front of the enemy fighters, on their line of advance. Turn them around so they face in the same direction as the enemy fighters. The enemy fighters never get to a good launch position because my fighters appear to be flying away, even though they are actually parked. When the enemy fighters get within range of my missiles, I fire (backwards !!) and flee. Works like a charm against the AI, but it is obviously just a sleazy tactic which any human can refute. But is the overall result "wrong"? If you put a bunch of F-16s against a bunch of MiG-23s, would it not be the case that the F-16s would rout the MiG-23s? And how would this be accomplished in Harpoon?

< Message edited by VictorInThePacific -- 11/12/2008 11:14:25 PM >
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RE: Sleazy Airplane Tactics - 11/12/2008 1:42:23 AM   
TonyE


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I may be a grumpy old broken record but get out of original GIUK folks, WestPac, EC2003 with scens downloaded from HarpGamer give you a much improved game; much more improved from original GIUK.

Ok, now that the pleading is done ...

Flying above the defenses is a very real tactic. More often it was the choice of flying above the AAA or below the SAMs but B-52s flying above the MANPADs in Iraq is a current example of such behavior.

In the game most planes being able to fly at VHigh isn't all that accurate and is remedied in the commondb battlesets (EC2003 and newer).




_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to VictorInThePacific)
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RE: Sleazy Airplane Tactics - 11/12/2008 1:48:06 AM   
NefariousKoel


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We just need MOAR WW3 SCENARIOS!!! 

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RE: Sleazy Airplane Tactics - 11/12/2008 9:45:06 AM   
mack2


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Who is the greatest naval power on earth? Mexico or Portugal!!!!

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Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 11/12/2008 9:50:31 AM   
hermanhum


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That might depend upon whether the battle fell on the Mexican or Portuguese national holiday. 

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RE: Sleazy Airplane Tactics - 11/12/2008 11:35:44 PM   
VictorInThePacific

 

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Regarding sleazy airplane tactic # 1.

Your airplanes are not invulnerable to cannon fire at VH altitude, and if the enemy fighters come up to get you, you had better have a good air search radar available, because they won't be visible to SS radar.

Regarding sleazy airplane tactic # 2.

I decided to actually try this one. So there I was, my F-16s cruising along merrily 20 km above sea level. I approached the Soviet SAG, secure in my invulnerability. As expected, they did not launch SAMs. 15 nm, 10 nm, 5 nm, no problem. So I figured I would fly right over top of the ships and drop my ordnance straight down their funnels.

How long does it take a Maverick to fly 20 km straight down?

I never found out. As my F-16s approached within 5 nm of the ships, the F-16s all blew up. This was not due to SAM fire, because I saw each SAM launch. So it probably was all those 5-inch, 3-inch, and smaller guns that never get to fire that did the job. It is true that these guns are listed as having a maximum altitude of effect less than VH. But it appears that they function at all altitudes.

So this particular tactic needs to be used with some care.

(in reply to VictorInThePacific)
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RE: Sleazy Airplane Tactics - 11/16/2008 4:41:26 AM   
rich12545

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE

I may be a grumpy old broken record but get out of original GIUK folks, WestPac, EC2003 with scens downloaded from HarpGamer give you a much improved game; much more improved from original GIUK.



Maybe a dumb question, but why can't the original GIUK etc be modified to give that much improved game? There are a lot of scenarios that seem to be almost wasted.

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Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 11/16/2008 7:24:21 AM   
hermanhum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

Maybe a dumb question, but why can't the original GIUK etc be modified to give that much improved game? There are a lot of scenarios that seem to be almost wasted.

There is a fellow who has been steadily and diligently re-writing the old GIUK/NACV/MEDC/IOPG scenarios for compatibility with HCE. You can check out his progress at:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FilesOfScenShare/files/Harpoon%20Classic%20Gold/EC2000%20files/

Do give some of them a try. Larry would love to hear how his efforts are received.


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RE: Sleazy Airplane Tactics - 11/16/2008 2:58:54 PM   
TonyE


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545


quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE

I may be a grumpy old broken record but get out of original GIUK folks, WestPac, EC2003 with scens downloaded from HarpGamer give you a much improved game; much more improved from original GIUK.



Maybe a dumb question, but why can't the original GIUK etc be modified to give that much improved game? There are a lot of scenarios that seem to be almost wasted.



As Herman posted, it is possible by recreating the scenarios, a better database, etc. With what the grander 'we' know now about Cold War platforms, the databases in those earlier battlesets are noticeably separated from reality. So first you need to build a database that more accurately depicts the platforms as they were. That immediately means that some of the strategies meant for the scenarios won't work (planes with different ranges than they originally had can no longer even reach the target). So now you've invalidated a direct automated conversion (which would need a mountain of programmer time anyway to write such a converter for each of the earlier battlesets; the databases differ so much that the converter would need to tailored for each battleset). Anyway, you are now at the point of re-creating and re-interpreting the scenario after having poured all that time into crafting a suitable database.

So the older scenarios can be rebuilt to be much improved but it requires time and effort. I also wouldn't say those earlier scenarios are wasted, they just aren't giving you mechanics-wise anything near what the game can do. When there are masterful scenario designers working in EC2003/WestPac/beyond it seems a bit strange to me that people spend all of their time with the game on the older scenarios. If there weren't masterful new scenarios I would totally agree with sticking with the old but many of the new design scenarios show excellent design.

Good timely question anyway, pretty soon there will be a set of re-builds that Brad, Ralf, and I have done .





< Message edited by TonyE -- 11/16/2008 2:59:26 PM >


_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to rich12545)
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RE: Sleazy Airplane Tactics - 11/16/2008 8:35:11 PM   
Divefreak

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

Maybe a dumb question, but why can't the original GIUK etc be modified to give that much improved game? There are a lot of scenarios that seem to be almost wasted.




Maybee you want to give my Baltic Collection a try.

It Contains 6 rebuild stock scens....

and the DB to play them.

http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=267

Regards René

_____________________________

My dbs: HC-65to80-DB and HC-80to95-DB, get it via www.harpgamer.com

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RE: Sleazy Airplane Tactics - 11/17/2008 3:37:46 AM   
rich12545

 

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Snagged all.  And will be looking forward to the re-builds.  Thanks.

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