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Air attack on a 7 ship SAG - 11/28/2007 4:10:43 PM   
Stalintc


Posts: 291
Joined: 8/2/2006
From: Bristol UK
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Hi Gents,

I’m quite proud of this attack and I really couldn’t keep my mouth shut and keep it quiet *sorry*

I won’t mention the scenario because that may spoil the surprise for somebody starting it out in the near future.


Intelligence:

A 7 ship SAG has been picked up by one of my P-3 Orions laying sonobuoy barriers, which was emitting radar also looking for snorkelling kilos. The SAG was confirmed heading South East at 15 knots 180nm North of one of my own escorted cargo convoys, appearing to have intentions of intercept.

The identified ships were of the following class and their formation was determined:

2 x Nanuchka III (Both rear left of the formation 5nm from the centre group)

1 x MOD Kashin (Right flank of the formation 5nm from the centre group)

1 x Krivak II (Frontal area of the formation 5nm forward of the centre group)

1 x Sovremenny (Central group)
1 x Udaloy (Central group)
1 x Kresta 1 (Central group)

The biggest hitter with missiles in the formation is the Kresta reaching out to 250nm while the rest of the vessels were averaging 60 – 80nm in range

The longest range SAMS were reaching out to 14nm and stationed among members of the central group and the Kashin.


Available resources:

I have 1 P-3 Orion airborne 53nm South East from the SAG (4x Harpoon)

1 x P3 Orion stationed at an airbase 190nm away (4x Harpoon)

8x F-16C stationed at an airbase 92nm East at an airbase 92nm away (12x Maverick each for a total of 96 Mavericks in an 8 plane group)

1 x PTM surface group 110nm East North East of the SAG


Looking for weakpoints:

1) The first weakspot which jumps out at me is the 2 Nanuchka III’s at the rear right of the formation, since they have very poor point defence weapons they could be picked off quite easily by a small effort in this area opening a large hole in the overall AAW ring. As a plus factor, attacking from here would prevent the Kashin from launching its missiles of 14nm range, because the Kashin is 5 nm South of centre and the Nanuchka’s are 5nm North of centre, at the very best the Kashin can only react once the missiles have reach 4nm from their target, which in most cases is too late at max range.

2) The second weakpoint is the very rear of the formation, covered only by the Centre group and the Kashin for the most part, there is AAW ship at the rear and for that matter no ship at all behind the centre group, missiles will still have to face the wrath of the longer range SAM’s but for the most part un-opposed by the other vessels in the formation.


Consideration:

With the enemy SAG closing on my convoy fast, I need to act now they are radars hot and hunting in an aggressive manner for any contact on my convoy, the 250nm missiles of the Kresta are well within range and are a real threat to my surface group, and also since they are capable of carrying a nuclear warhead it is not a threat I can take lightly, if they are nuclear armed it would likely only take one to get through my AAW screen to wreck the whole convoy, which is not a risk I am going to take. Due to the fact that the enemy SAG is within range, the level of urgency requires fast immediate action, therefore an air attack will be essential, there is no time for moving to engage with the available surface groups.

The enemy have fighters stationed at an airbase 200nm from the area of engagement and could react in defence of the SAG. The P-3 Orions are a precious asset and are very vulnerable to attack, they must be defended at all costs since they are my most powerful ASW asset capable of laying down excellent blocking barriers of sonobuoys and screening the advance of my precious cargo vessels. Do I really want to risk this asset in this way? The answer is YES, with my assessment of the situation my convoy is in immediate danger, submarines are not an immediate threat, the already dense ASW screen for the convoy is capable of holding for the duration of the assault, although with less certainty of the waters ahead as I may like.


Plan:

To start I need to shield the attack from the Russian airfield to the North, for the duration attack there will be a flight of 2 F-16’s and 2 Harrier II’s on station providing a BARCAP against any aircraft trying to move South West to the engagement zone, I will also place a patrol of 2 further F-16’s just North of the engagement zone to be close enough to attack any aircraft which slip past the BARCAP.

I plan to attack from 3 directions to push the AAW systems of the SAG to its limit, the aircraft and intentions I have for them are as follows:

1) The on station P-3 will engage head on with the enemy ship group at 39nm with 4 harpoons fired ahead of the other 2 waves at the Krivak to draw the initial wave of point defence missiles for the frontal quarter where their AAW is strongest and most concentrated

2) The other P-3 will proceed to station 39nm from the SAG and attack from the West from the rear of the convoy with 4 harpoons aimed right at the Kresta with the hope of at least 1 missile getting through and damaging her weapon mounts

3) 4 F-16C’s from the Eastern airfield will proceed to station 26nm from the SAG and attack from the North against the Nanuchka III missile boats allocating 4 mavericks to each ship, if the enemy AAW is significantly distracted I will close a little more with the F-16’s and launch their remaining missiles against the Kresta of which there will be 36 Mavericks remaining.

- Attack number 1) will fire first, once the harpoons are 2nm from their launch I will then fire the harpoons from attack 2)

- When attack 2) reaches 26nm from the SAG I will then start closing with attack 3) to their 12nm Maverick missile range

- By the time attack 3) has reached their launch position the harpoons from 1) and 2) should now be engaged.

- attack 3) will then launch their missiles and attempt to close for a shot on the inner group.


Execution:


The currently airborne P-3 Orion is on station an loitering in its current position lighting up and monitoring the progress of the enemy SAG, they are showing no intentions of changing course.

My BARCAP moves itself into position with radars off waiting to ambush any aircraft that try and punch South, no contacts reported in the air, the formation of the attack is green for go!!

The Second P-3 Orion is now airborne and due to reach its station West of the SAG in 25 minutes while the F-16’s strike aircraft are now forming up and circling their airbase almost ready to swing round to the North of the SAG.

I watch the screen closely with a tense stare as the pieces of the attack fall into position, hoping that the SAG cannot get a sniff of what is about to hit them, or the location of my convoy, time is of the essence and I sense that I am running of out it fast.

That’s it! Still no enemy air contacts, my attackers are in position, the SAG has not reacted to my actions the time is NOW!

I order the first barrage of Harpoons from the Eastern P-3 to launch, they immediately dis-engage from their pylons screaming off into the distance as their boosters propel them to closure speed. I count the distance from their launch….. 1…… 2….. the second P-3 to the West goes active lofts its effort of Harpoons at its target.

I again watch the screen nervously as the missiles close on the SAG, 30nm….. 29nm…. 28…. 27…. 26… that’s the cue for the F-16’s to ingress radars HOT!

The first wave of missiles is 14nm away from the surface group and the first barrage of point defence missiles are in the air the F-16’s and the second wave of missiles are at the perfect distance 16nm.

The second wave of harpoons now reaches 14nm and a smaller point defence barrage of missiles is launched at them the F-16’s push forward still not in range of the 14nm SAMS from the SAG… roaring in low they hit 12nm from the Nanuchka’s the flight leader hands off the targets and goes weapons free! 4 mavericks in the air going for the nanuchka’s

The first wave of harpoons takes 2 losses 5nm from their target (Krivak) while the rest of the point defence shoots whizz and whistle past the other 2 harpoons still closing fast.

Meanwhile the second wave from the weakspot to the West is not so lucky, 3 missiles were lost to the long range SAMS from the SAG, but still one continues to close now 7 nm from its target (Kresta)

Another frenzied barrage of point defence missiles rises from the SAG this time the whole groups SAMS are getting involved now also targeting the inbound mavericks on the Nanuchka’s, my F-16’s are still not being targeted by the air defences, so I continue to push them closer!! YES they are in range of the Kresta!! The pilots of the formation know just what to do and empty their remaining compliment of 36 Mavericks on her, popping chaff and flares as the last missile leaves the rails pulling 7G’s as they pull round hard to escape the fury of the SAG’s already enraged air defences….

The two Eastern harpoons to my surprise make it through the flurry of air defences and strike the Krivak, the most un-expected first blow on the SAG.. the attack that was supposed to fail… I watch in amazement as the first harpoon strikes the rear deck and the second roars in moments later smashing into the bow causing it to rock violently to one side.

My attention turns to the one remaining harpoon in the east which has now run the gauntlet of 4 of the shorter range missiles launched from the SAG, 2nm… 1nm… BOOOOM that’s a hit! The harpoon slams into the rear super structure of the blowing it apart with ease, but still the Krista absorbs the hit and continues forward almost ignoring the crushing blow.

Now for the final gambit , the mavericks! 3 of the initial wave of Mavericks at the Nanuchkas get blown out of the sky while the other 5 continue on to their targets, 2 of which punch straight into the first missile boats blowing it into an unrecognisable shower of metal fragments. 1 of the other Maverick screams past the bow of the second Nanuchka the other 2 Mavericks punch straight into her while her guns still blaze in a vain attempt to knock down the vampires, turning the hull into the same state as the first.

A last ditch gun and short range SAM battle ensues against the remaining Mavericks heading for the Kresta plucking 12 of them out of the sky, but allowing the other 24 to continue towards their target 18 of them slamming into the Kresta like a field of asteroids pummelling a moon large balls of fire erupting from the impacts followed by a huge secondary from one of the impacts due to a direct hit to one of the main magazines sending its remaining missile armament roaring into a huge explosion literally ripping the entire vessel in two send pieces of munition and steel spiralling through the air zipping past and bouncing off the Udaloy and the Sovremenny still unscathed by the assault.

The crews of the Eastern P-3 and the F-16’s celebrate quietly in their cockpits as they set course for homeplate, while the Western P-3 remains on station to track the remnants of the assault and perform a full BDA.


Results:

Fired

8x Harpoon
44x maverick

Hit

3x Harpoon 37.5% hit ratio
24x Maverick 54.5% hit ratio

Targets destroyed

2x Nanuchka III
1 x Kresta I
1x Krivak II

Losses:

0


Thoughts on reflection:

- The overall operation went well the main threat to my convoy has been removed

- The operation was costly in firepower, had I not been so desperate to remove the Kresta from the water, I may have been in good mind to allocate a few more of those mavericks onto the Udaloy and Sovrmenny to inflict a more total blow and effective use of ammunition on the SAG.

- The employment of the F-16’s was very risky taking them right into SAM range to attack the Kresta, an element of luck on my side meant this was worth the risk and no losses were taken.

- I was surprised to see that the harpoons that were fired first and aimed into the best covered part of the AAW ring had better success getting through the air defences than the ones fired into the less well protected area. But I am pleased however that increasing the number of direction the SAG had to engage on had some effect with regards to getting some missiles through the net. I was also very pleased to see that the harpoon strike provided perfect cover for the F-16’s to attack with the SAG fully distracted by the harpoons.

- The formation of my attack was too slow, they most likely would have seen it coming, thankfully they had no airborne response to my assault or things may have ended differently.

- Because of the poor maverick allocation I must now make a second strike on the group, but on the flipside, I have bought more time to do so and there is less urgency, there are now no missile systems capable of reaching my convoy at this time it now makes more sense to move my PTM’s into position to support a second less aggressive air assault this time without the maverick attack.


Any comments or suggestions on doing this better please post

edit- spelling again....

< Message edited by Stalintc -- 11/28/2007 8:17:47 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Air attack on a 7 ship SAG - 11/28/2007 4:43:00 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
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From: The Rock, Canada
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Great AAR, Stalintc. That's a pretty detailed analysis.

Not sure I have much to add, except to comment that in the newer Battlesets (EC2003 and Westpac), the ones where you can edit the database, you won't see any 12x Maverick loadouts on the F-16.

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RE: Air attack on a 7 ship SAG - 11/28/2007 7:13:53 PM   
NefariousKoel


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Yep, I had eight F-16Cs on that one loaded out the wazoo with those Mavericks & came in behind the enemy SAG.  96 Mavericks fired later (and some white screens from all the 2D screen action) and the whole SAG was obliterated.  I was thinking 12 Mavs was a bit much for an F-16 to carry.


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RE: Air attack on a 7 ship SAG - 11/28/2007 7:34:08 PM   
Stalintc


Posts: 291
Joined: 8/2/2006
From: Bristol UK
Status: offline
CV32 - Hehe thanks man  About the newer battlesets that sounds good, it did seem a little daft having so many Mavericks on the wing pylons, which is part of the reason why I stuck with a 4 ship formation to strike rather than all 8 of them! even if the load was realisitic I still could have dropped my 44 mavericks into the formation

The main reason for me posting this was to give a few people new to harpoon an insight into the tactics of taking down a SAG, so I felt the more detailed the better! its a shame I didnt think to take screenshots, like the way Herman does, because his AAR's are pretty cool.

NK - I see you know the scenario im on about hehehe, looks like you did a much better job than me to end up wiping that SAG off the face of the earth with one attack! good job man! and you spotted that vulnerable rear to the formation! Any Falcon 4.0 nut like myself will tell you just how much of a pig flying with 6 Mavericks onboard is, not to mention with a high fuel load and a drop tank!




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RE: Air attack on a 7 ship SAG - 11/28/2007 8:07:34 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
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From: Murderous Missouri Scum
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Yep!  I had just played that one yesterday.  

Strangely enough, I played it twice and the first time I wiped the floor with the Soviet forces including the above, eliminated all their aircraft with a 3:1 kill ratio, and found a Kilo with a P-3 right off the bat and still had half a load of sonobuoys - only took 2 Mk46 to kill him.  The second time I played, however, didn't end up starting off so well as I lost way more a/c than I would've liked when I tried to get fancy. 

Definitely a little replayability in them when you try different tactics.  I stress the word "try".


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RE: Air attack on a 7 ship SAG - 11/28/2007 8:23:08 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Great AAR, thanks for posting!

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RE: Air attack on a 7 ship SAG - 11/28/2007 9:31:53 PM   
Stalintc


Posts: 291
Joined: 8/2/2006
From: Bristol UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel

Yep! I had just played that one yesterday.

Strangely enough, I played it twice and the first time I wiped the floor with the Soviet forces including the above, eliminated all their aircraft with a 3:1 kill ratio, and found a Kilo with a P-3 right off the bat and still had half a load of sonobuoys - only took 2 Mk46 to kill him. The second time I played, however, didn't end up starting off so well as I lost way more a/c than I would've liked when I tried to get fancy.

Definitely a little replayability in them when you try different tactics. I stress the word "try".



Sounds like you did a pretty good job by all acounts!

Thats not fair! usually it takes 3 - 4 torpedos to take down a sub, bloody stingray torpedos with their 23 DP hits pffft hehe I look forward to using those mk46's woo!

I havent finished the scenario yet, the above was just that mission I organised against the SAG, still more to kill lol

Only lost 1 plane so far, that was fighting against a strike group of 8 Fencers and 4 Floggers with 2 F-16's co-ordinated closely with base air defences.



Erik - My pleasure, thanks for the comment

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RE: Air attack on a 7 ship SAG - 12/2/2007 3:31:03 PM   
skrewball


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From: Belgium
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Excellent detail...also way to keep us in suspense! Harpoon has been effectively kicking my butt since 1989! Hearing your methodical approach to an air attack has inspired me to try the same *Starts Harpoon* 

Usually I just keep throwing aircraft at something until I run out, or they do. Must remember to attack from all sides


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RE: Air attack on a 7 ship SAG - 12/6/2007 3:46:32 AM   
Stalintc


Posts: 291
Joined: 8/2/2006
From: Bristol UK
Status: offline
After several days playing this scen realtime here are the results



- 1 F16 lost during an initial air battle

- 1 Frigate and its helo lost to a missile attack while diverting the remaining SAG members away from the convoy.

(in reply to skrewball)
Post #: 9
RE: Air attack on a 7 ship SAG - 12/6/2007 4:57:47 PM   
CV32


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From: The Rock, Canada
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Congrats to comrade Stalin for completing that scenario. You can shave the beard now.

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RE: Air attack on a 7 ship SAG - 11/11/2008 2:27:09 AM   
VictorInThePacific

 

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Stalin, I like your tactic of having standoff missiles approach first, then missiles from outside of SAM range, and only when the air defense is fully engaged do the airplanes enter SAM range to deliver the coup de grace. What is the poor air defense going to do - NOT shoot the missiles that are already going to sink the ships in order to have a chance to shoot down the airplanes that have not yet launched more missiles that will sink more ships?

I do have some comments on the use of Maverick-armed Falcons in this scenario. The Soviet air defense engages at 15 nm or less. The Maverick needs to be launched at 12 nm. Let's simplify the situation to where one Falcon attacks one Sovremenny. If the Falcon drives straight in to 12 nm, launches Mavericks, turns around as soon as possible, and drives straight out (using afterburner as appropriate), is the Falcon able to get back out beyond 15 nm before the SAM reaches it? The answer may or may not be yes in reality, but I think it is no in the game. The general problem is that it takes too long to turn around.

What if the Falcon doesn't drive straight in? What if it comes in at an oblique angle? This is like a pursuit problem. The Falcon moves along a chord of a circle, where the outside of the circle is "safe". The SAM is launched from the center of the circle. For most of the SAMs in this situation, the speed of the Falcon on afterburner is greater than the speed of the SAM. Therefore, if the SAM hasn't caught the Falcon before the Falcon reaches the center of the chord, it won't, so the Falcon is safe (and the ship gets sunk). (This assumes that the Falcon can launch its ordnance in any direction.)

I have tried this a number of times (after first sinking the 3 small ships with Mavericks and the Mod Kashin with Harpoons) in a "clean" situation (no missiles in flight as the Falcon approaches), and the Falcon gets to its launch point safely every time, screams out on afterburner, and never gets caught.

A variation on this is to drive the Falcon in a circle (well, a polygon) around the target ship (eg. Kresta I). In this case, the Falcon is not actually trying to get to launch range, so it can stay fairly slow, but the ship has to keep shooting and eventually runs out of SAMs. Sort of like Custer's Last Stand.

Anyway, Stalin, as you demonstrate, the air defense has no chance at all in this situation.

< Message edited by VictorInThePacific -- 11/12/2008 11:43:52 PM >

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RE: Air attack on a 7 ship SAG - 11/12/2008 6:14:50 PM   
noxious


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...and any pix watching HCE player now knows which scenario it was...
I must admit I had guessed the right battleset ;)


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Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 11/12/2008 7:06:08 PM   
hermanhum


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You can see that it is the GIUK battleset scenario #4.0 (Convoy) from the name listed on the top of the border. I, too, was confused at the outset.

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RE: Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 11/14/2008 12:36:11 PM   
mack2


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Personally I think you might have overthought the attack on the group. The SAM/Radar ranges on the soviet SAG are simply not up to the stand of defending against even a modest attack.

I put the 2 Orions out on ASW duty after re-doing their home base range circles, and just put all the fighters to guided. In the end I probably didn't need to, the 16's already on guided (8) would have been enough anyway).

I split off the orions after some initial sweeping of their area, and moved up north and to the west to clear the flanks, got a long range hit on the SAG, moved them up got good radar on every ship.

Narvik got a bit damaged by an incoming strike, but since I had no orders to defend it I didn't care.

Launched the fighters to the SAG with their mavericks, launched the orions harpoons at the 2 ships closest to where the F-16's would be coming from, then once the missiles were incoming and taking the SAG's attention rocked the F-16's in on afterburner, who got into range without taking fire, I did lose 2 after dropping to VLOW for no reason.

Only loosed off half the mavs, about 12-15 at each ship.

The missiles tracked in, 2 harpoons made it through to the first ship, 1 hit, sunk it and then the mavericks hit their targets.

Sunk the whole formation. The F-16's were never even launched on, 2 of the Harpoons made it through.

I tried it again, this time the SAG was in a different area, but the execution and result was the same, except I'd also stopped the Soviets from hitting Narvik with the pre-loaded AA F-16's (and the sacrifice of 2 harriers).

Followed the Orion's harpoons in very close (too close, lost a F-16 to gunfire), shot the mavricks, all ships sunk.

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