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Submarine Sims? - 2/18/2009 10:49:19 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Matrix hasn't delved into this, and I'm still wondering why that is. I'm aware of the Subsim forum, and the Silent Hunter series. However, I keep hearing about a discontinued sim called "Aces of the Deep", which had a campaign feature and is still talked about on Subsim. Why has Matrix not acquired the rights to "AOD" and re-released it? Has it even been considered?

That being said, I own "Silent Hunter II" and acquired many of the fan-created mods. That game is now legendary as an unfinished product which the fans finally made somewhat playable.

The modern "Silent Hunters" require modern PCs and advanced graphics features. For those of us with older PCs, there's a gap to be filled.

I periodically revisit this idea, but my question is: is anyone interested enough to lobby for a classic subsim to be brought back to life?
Post #: 1
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/18/2009 11:15:56 PM   
oldspec4

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 11/1/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah...remember playing 688 attack sub in the late '80s. But haven't seen anything recently that interests me; and I'm somewhat limited by my old computer specs too.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 2
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/18/2009 11:17:31 PM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		Interesting you brought this up... I'm in the process of re-installing SH3 on my computer and getting it patched up. Not sure what it was that triggered the bug - I think constantly checking the WiTP board for AE updates did it... But I love sub sims. I had 688, Red Storm Rising, Silent Hunters 1, 2 and now 3... I'd love to see Matrix get involved in one...

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Post #: 3
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/18/2009 11:47:28 PM   
JagdFlanker


Posts: 689
Joined: 7/26/2003
From: Halifax, Canada
Status: offline 		i still go on a Red Storm Rising run here and there going all the way back since i had it on my C64 - nice and simple but always challenging

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 4
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/19/2009 12:49:36 AM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Aces of the Deep was probably the most immersive game I have ever played -- at least at the time. Quite fun and very addicting.

The graphics on Silent Hunter IV, and its various mods, are truly stunning. However, the game is not quite as addicting as Aces of the Deep.

All great fun to play. Ideal for computer simulation/modelling -- all physics: time, velocity and vectors. Air combat is similar, but translating the human interface to a computer/joystick still creates a reality gap, while sub sims seem ideal to model via a computer interface -- it is easy to translate orders shouted from the bridge or control room into key strokes and point-and-click actions.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to JagdFlanker)
Post #: 5
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/19/2009 12:59:09 AM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Matrix hasn't delved into this, and I'm still wondering why that is. I'm aware of the Subsim forum, and the Silent Hunter series. However, I keep hearing about a discontinued sim called "Aces of the Deep", which had a campaign feature and is still talked about on Subsim. Why has Matrix not acquired the rights to "AOD" and re-released it? Has it even been considered?


I honestly don't know who would buy it. It was a good game, but is now very long in tooth and would probably need a fair bit of work to bring up to scratch. Even then, most established sub-simmers would be unlikely to give up SH3/4 for it, and any new ones would pick those titles on the basis of looks alone - and in all honesty both are better games than AotD anyway, certainly in modded form. There really can't be many gamers without the horsepower to run SH3, if not SH4... certainly not enough to make the project profitable.







(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 6
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/19/2009 3:02:15 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Herstston, you seem to be in the minority, at the moment. The thing that guys like me would want is a random career campaign, like SPWAW's long campaigns are done. Matrix has resurrected several older games, so a "retro" game like AoTD might attract players who hadn't previously played a subsim. These types of games are also ideal for the solo players, who do in fact compromise the vast majority of wargamers.

I recently re-installed SH II, plus a few mods, but I just got sick of the "janus errors" when one mod conflicted with another and caused a game crash.

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 7
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/19/2009 8:54:44 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		No way would simmers give up SHII/IV for a revamped AotD. It's just tooooooo old hat.

Even within the Matrix crowd, I can't imagine it would be a big seller for Matrix....nowhere near worth doing!

The only reason AotD is talked about on Subsim is the "reminisce" factor (and we all know what that normally turns out to feel like...a waste of money!) and the campaign. Most of those bods wouldn't go near AotD unless it was completely re-written.

I'm with Hertston here tbh...move along

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 8
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/19/2009 9:19:08 AM   
Banquet

 

Posts: 1184
Joined: 8/23/2002
From: England
Status: offline 		I'll also chime in with Hertston and Judge.. AotD was a milestone release at the time and is still the only subsim to have wolfpacks as far as I know, but in all honesty, with Silent Hunter 3 and 4 available - and both having a dynamic campaign which Silent Hunter 2 lacked - I couldn't see myself going back to it, and I doubt many other people would either.

I do know of one person who still plays it more than any other subsim though, so who knows!

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Post #: 9
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/19/2009 11:19:46 AM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Herstston, you seem to be in the minority, at the moment. The thing that guys like me would want is a random career campaign, like SPWAW's long campaigns are done.


Actually, SH3 has a career camapaign. There also was a third-party addon in develepment called 'Seawolves' or so, which should bring SH3 to a more strategic/operational level. No idea how far they got with this.

I don't mind visuals in strategy games but for sim's they're considerable more important in order to create a realistic athmosphere. That being said, I wouldn't consider to purchase a remastered AoD or something like that.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 10
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/19/2009 11:42:53 AM   
cantona2


Posts: 3749
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		SH3 with the user made mod GWX will see you for a long while

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Post #: 11
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/20/2009 12:15:45 AM   
Ron

 

Posts: 506
Joined: 6/6/2002
Status: offline 		I don't know, but AOtD had a lot going for it. Dynamix seemed to have a knack for making great games at that time - AOtD, Red Baron and Aces over Europe and the Pacific, were ones I had fond memories of. Whether it is nostalgia or not, Aces of the Deep was very immersive and engrossing. I think the movie Das Boot may have had something to do with it. I have SH II, III and IV, and while from a realistic and graphical standpoint, both III and IV with mods, easily surpass AOtD, imo they can't touch it for overall atmosphere and general gaming goodness. I agree with several posters, the subsim crowd is pretty limited and pretty narrow in what's a good sim, and probably unwelcoming to an updated version. That said I would definitely buy one!


(in reply to cantona2)
Post #: 12
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/20/2009 5:36:19 PM   
Fintilgin

 

Posts: 196
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline 		Is there such a thing as a WW1 sub-sim?  Or, more likely, a mod for one of the existing WW2 games?

(in reply to Ron)
Post #: 13
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/20/2009 7:00:22 PM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fintilgin

Is there such a thing as a WW1 sub-sim?  Or, more likely, a mod for one of the existing WW2 games?




Yup, 1914: Shells of Fury. Never played it, but Subsim seem to like it.

(in reply to Fintilgin)
Post #: 14
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/20/2009 7:09:27 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline 		A game that stops me playing SH3/4 would have to be very special indeed. I've never heard of Aces, but a revamp of an old game probably wouldn't be good enough. That's just my opinion though and stranger things do happen at sea!

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

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Post #: 15
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/20/2009 7:58:21 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Here's the Wikipedia page on AoTD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aces_of_the_Deep_(video_game)

(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 16
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/20/2009 8:00:53 PM   
Greybriar


Posts: 1148
Joined: 2/9/2007
Status: offline 		Red Storm Rising was, I think, the first sub sim I ever played. It was a good game, although its graphics were primitive by today's standards, but then so was my old IBM clone with its CGA graphics.

The first sub sim I played a lot was Silent Service II. I also played Wolf Pack at about the same time, but it just didn't have the appeal of Silent Service II.

Then Aces of the Deep came along. In my opinion, Dynamix had the best graphics going back in those days and they certainly impressed me.

By the time the Silent Hunter series came along, I had had my fill of sub sims (StarForce on SH3 didn't help matters!). I purchased all the games in the series and played them a bit, but I never got as immersed in them as I had with Silent Service II and Aces of the Deep.

One of the last sub sims I purchased was 1914: Shells of Fury, which Hertston posted about. I think it is a great game for its price.

_____________________________

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Post #: 17
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/20/2009 8:18:22 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		In the present day, it may be a lost cause to sacrifice graphics quality for replayability, but I think there MIGHT be a niche market for this in the Matrix community.




(in reply to Greybriar)
Post #: 18
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/20/2009 9:27:03 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline 		Graphics over gameplay will never sell me anything. Eye candy is always nice to have, but I have lost count how many games I've uninstalled in disgust because they looked good, but played badly.

Fortunately, SH has both great graphics and good gameplay. If Matrix could come up with a game which rivalled the immersion of Silent Service (which was my first love) and Silent Hunter, even if the graphics were just ok or mediocre, I would switch. There's nothing on the market like SH and hasn't been for a long time, unfortunately. Sub sims have no peer for tense and stressful gameplay, with the exception of the Shalebridge Cradle!!!! 

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 19
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/20/2009 10:12:16 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		No...but when you get graphics AND gameplay (SHIII and SHIV) what more is there?

Seriously...there is nothing more atmospheric than stalking your prey and pouncing - only to be bounced by 3 or 4 destroyers, all dropping depth charges...some close...some not so...and when you have graphics to die for on top of that??? What else is there?

AotD is old school and doesn't offer anything that isn't already there imo...and what it "may" offer just isn't worth the drop back to 80's graphics.

I think the "niche" market is more "niche" than you may think.

(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 20
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/20/2009 10:23:49 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline 		What I was thinking about was how many games I've played where I thought...what else could they do with this to make it better? And drawn a blank. Then, having grabbed a patch or sequel, seen what can be done. As an example, I was thinking about the Thief series when I posted. Each time they bring a new one out, I'm blown away by the gameplay above all else. And each time, I'm convinced they can't improve upon it. The Shalebridge Cradle level in the last game has been talked about all over the Internet and justifiably so because it was so amazing to play. There are probably plenty more examples, but you get my drift

The thing is, I don't know enough about subs to say what's missing or what could be better. We have hundreds of WWII turn based games, all doing something similar, but different. Some are better than others for different people. SH is superb, yes. But, could it be better? I'm sure it could be beaten by someone with more imagination and knowledge than I. If this weren't the case, we'd have one or two games for every genre and all the devs would just pack up and go home because their work is done.

< Message edited by Jim_H -- 2/20/2009 10:26:30 PM >

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

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Post #: 21
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/21/2009 2:28:36 AM   
Phatguy

 

Posts: 1348
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline 		I still play it once in a while

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Post #: 22
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/21/2009 3:00:12 AM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H

SH is superb, yes. But, could it be better? I'm sure it could be beaten by someone with more imagination and knowledge than I.


You forget the third element in a modern simulation game; it's imagination, knowledge and money. Lots and lots of money. Nobody (or at least very few people) make simulations any more because the rewards just don't justify the combination of cost and risk.

(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 23
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/21/2009 10:10:57 AM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston
You forget the third element in a modern simulation game; it's imagination, knowledge and money. Lots and lots of money. Nobody (or at least very few people) make simulations any more because the rewards just don't justify the combination of cost and risk.

Fair comment. Things have certainly changed direction over the past 10yrs or so. Is it just my cloudy memory, or were sims one of the most popular genres at one time? We used to have a huge choice of combat flight sims too at one time. I suppose we have consoles to thank for much of this.

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 24
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/21/2009 11:18:30 AM   
Tomus

 

Posts: 234
Joined: 9/22/2003
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston
You forget the third element in a modern simulation game; it's imagination, knowledge and money. Lots and lots of money. Nobody (or at least very few people) make simulations any more because the rewards just don't justify the combination of cost and risk.

Fair comment. Things have certainly changed direction over the past 10yrs or so. Is it just my cloudy memory, or were sims one of the most popular genres at one time? We used to have a huge choice of combat flight sims too at one time. I suppose we have consoles to thank for much of this.


I don't think it was consoles. The sim community killed itself. Every new sim was derided and criticised, as not being as good as the last version, people seemed happy to spend thousands on new graphics cards, monitors and memory yet couldn't possibly afford a £20 expansion pack. The fights between IL2 and Combat Flightsim, Lock on and airwar etc etc. Simmers in my experience are the most demanding least giving community out there.

I am still surprised when you see long standing posters at Sub Sim or UBI or SIM HQ asking advice on whether its worth upgrading to FSX, IL2 1946, SHIV etc from their older versions of the games. Simmers need to support their hobby through sales and frankly they don't. Which forces companies to either ditch the genre or make it user friendly for all.

(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 25
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/21/2009 3:04:32 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston
You forget the third element in a modern simulation game; it's imagination, knowledge and money. Lots and lots of money. Nobody (or at least very few people) make simulations any more because the rewards just don't justify the combination of cost and risk.

Fair comment. Things have certainly changed direction over the past 10yrs or so. Is it just my cloudy memory, or were sims one of the most popular genres at one time? We used to have a huge choice of combat flight sims too at one time. I suppose we have consoles to thank for much of this.


I don't think it was consoles. The sim community killed itself. Every new sim was derided and criticised, as not being as good as the last version, people seemed happy to spend thousands on new graphics cards, monitors and memory yet couldn't possibly afford a £20 expansion pack. The fights between IL2 and Combat Flightsim, Lock on and airwar etc etc. Simmers in my experience are the most demanding least giving community out there.

I am still surprised when you see long standing posters at Sub Sim or UBI or SIM HQ asking advice on whether its worth upgrading to FSX, IL2 1946, SHIV etc from their older versions of the games. Simmers need to support their hobby through sales and frankly they don't. Which forces companies to either ditch the genre or make it user friendly for all.


100% agree.

(in reply to Tomus)
Post #: 26
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/21/2009 3:30:20 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomus
I don't think it was consoles. The sim community killed itself. Every new sim was derided and criticised, as not being as good as the last version, people seemed happy to spend thousands on new graphics cards, monitors and memory yet couldn't possibly afford a £20 expansion pack. The fights between IL2 and Combat Flightsim, Lock on and airwar etc etc. Simmers in my experience are the most demanding least giving community out there.

I am still surprised when you see long standing posters at Sub Sim or UBI or SIM HQ asking advice on whether its worth upgrading to FSX, IL2 1946, SHIV etc from their older versions of the games. Simmers need to support their hobby through sales and frankly they don't. Which forces companies to either ditch the genre or make it user friendly for all.

Thankfully, I was never embroiled in any of that and just played the sims in complete ignorance of the in-fighting. It's a damn shame.

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to Tomus)
Post #: 27
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/21/2009 4:13:42 PM   
Tomus

 

Posts: 234
Joined: 9/22/2003
From: UK
Status: offline 		It was unbelievable and is still the case now.

There are still people on Sub Sim with thousands of forum posts to their name and years of posting and debating experience umming over whether they should pay £10 from Amazon for the SHIV expansion as they feel its a bit of a rip off an doesn't offer much else. And I just feel like screaming "PAY THE MONEY AND SUPPORT THE HOBBY YOU IDIOTS". And in the next post they quite happily boast about how well their new Alienware is running the game at max settings.

The invective that was generated between MS Flight Simmers and IL2 when it came out was legendary. I read the news about the demise of MS Flight Sim and thought serves you all right seeing as half the flight sim community is still playing FS2004 without any desire to upgrade to FSX and they were vocal about it. It sold less and that is it. The "community" managed to kill their own product which is amusing.

I don't advocate spending money for the sake of it...never. But when a you love a hobby sometimes its worth chucking a bit of cash at it IMO. Anyway sorry rant over. I have just always loved sims from the get go and the paucity of new games coming out is saddening.

(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 28
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/21/2009 5:32:09 PM   
andym


Posts: 1117
Joined: 7/12/2006
From: Kings Lynn UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fintilgin

Is there such a thing as a WW1 sub-sim?  Or, more likely, a mod for one of the existing WW2 games?




Yes there is a WW1 mod on the Subsim site for SH3

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Post #: 29
RE: Submarine Sims? - 2/21/2009 5:39:12 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

i still go on a Red Storm Rising run here and there going all the way back since i had it on my C64 - nice and simple but always challenging

Yes please somone create a remake. I had so much fun with that game.

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