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most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 2:42:44 AM   
Hornblower


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Men of Harlech.. sorry, men of WITP…
Ok folks, simple question.
As the Allies what is the most important location/base to take and hold?
As Japan, what is the most important location/base to take and hold?

Lets remove the obvious, PH, Tokyo, West Coast..
One answer to each...
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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 2:44:22 AM   
Knavey

 

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Not sure you can narrow it down to just ONE! Too many fronts on that map.

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 2:59:59 AM   
Anthropoid


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As allies: never having played a human, I find if I take and hold Guadalcanal (aka Lunga) quick and early, Mr. AI is toast, but then that is just a silly computer. Take Guad and you have taken the first step to holdoing Port Morseby. Hold PM and you have taken the first step to taking back Rabaul.

I would think the single most important for Japan is probably Palembang? Doesn't it have oodles of oil and stuff pouring out? Plus it is in a fairly strategic position.

Can't wait to check out the AE map!

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 3:02:26 AM   
AW1Steve


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The one your enemy most wants. Real estate is not important except as bases to launch yourself at the enemy , or to antagonize him into wasting lives and treasure. Land is only good for preparing the battlefield, or being the battle field. It constantly changes with the situation. If it keeps you enemy off balance, or allows you to threaten him, then it becomes important. Don't get hung up on how valuable a parcel of dirt is, if you do then you are surrendering to your opponent the initiative.

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 3:02:39 AM   
Canoerebel


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For the Allies:  Iwo Jima - take it and it gives you several altenatives to hit the Japanese heartland, whether it be to invade Sikhalin Island, Okinawa, Formosa, or Luzon.  Also, fighters and bombers on Iwo can give the Japs fits.

For the Japanese:  I haven't played the Japanese yet, but I would think any Japanese expansion that took either Sydney, Melbourne, or Karachi would give the Japs a fair shot at auto-victory.

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 3:06:18 AM   
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For the Japs, it's Singapore. They won't be getting anything significant out of the SRA without control of that base.

For the Allies, I'd vote for holding Port Moresby. With all the bombers they have, it becomes a serious thorn in the Japanese side very quickly. Without it, the Japanese will be able to mount a formidable defense of that area.



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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 3:28:52 AM   
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Not even close.

For the Japanese, nothing messes up the allies more than taking Noumea.

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 3:53:24 AM   
aprezto


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DPStafford: For that reason I would say it isn't the most important. Noumea is too obvious a target. It is easily taken by a determined Jap, especially one after an auto-victory because of its point value to the allies, and it is an island. So defending it with whatever you have early in the game usually means you lose it or are forced to commit far too much too early as the allies if you try. The Japs can just load up and take out your troops, planes and ships.

So, in my opinion the most important allied bases are Palymra, Christmas and Johnson. If you can, hold the Samoan Islands: Pago Pago and Nufet blah blah  Usually these islands are closer to Pearl and its support in the former, and at the end of a very long supply line for the Japs in the later. The Samoan group especially is great springboard to clearing out an advanced Jap. However, even these should not be defended at all costs.

For the Japs I would say Perth and Noumea. Noumea for as stated above, and its ability to threaten supply to Oz and NZ. Perth for the same reason from India.

This question is moot in all reality though, as others have stated, it depends on the strategic situation.

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 7:52:32 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford

Not even close.

For the Japanese, nothing messes up the allies more than taking Noumea.



hmmm... as the Allied, it has never messed up anything for me when losing it, just too easy to take it back with three bases on New Caledonia. As the Japanese, I never experienced that I´ve messed it up for my opponent either. Just a lot of victory points IMO and that´s it...

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 9:03:45 AM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hornblower

Men of Harlech.. sorry, men of WITP…
Ok folks, simple question.
As the Allies what is the most important location/base to take and hold?
As Japan, what is the most important location/base to take and hold?

Lets remove the obvious, PH, Tokyo, West Coast..
One answer to each...



You can't answer that from the Japanese perspective. The Japanese strategic goal was to create the Greater East Asia Coprosperity Sphere. Outside that area, there were no strategic objectives, just useful airbases (and airbase complexes). I'd say Rabaul.

The most important operational objective for the Allies was a base from which a close blockade of the Japanese home islands could be mounted. Probably Okinawa.

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 9:46:14 AM   
String


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Early months, Singapore. After that Noumea (purely for the vp's) and when the allied offensive gets into gear it's Iwo Jima.

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 10:49:23 AM   
wdolson

 

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Note, I'm thinking about bases here in AE terms which is closer to reality than stock.

The game represents a few different combat theaters, each one has it's own critical bases.  Singapore is the gateway to the western side of the SRA and is critical for that reason.  On the eastern side, there is no single must hold base, but Clark Field is pretty important to controlling the sea lanes.

In the Southwest Pacific, everything hinges on Rabaul, Port Morseby, and to some extent Noumea.  The Japanese need to hold a number of supporting bases further north to hold onto Noumea, it's easy to cut off from behind, so it can turn into a Burmese monkey trap for the Japanese if they aren't careful.  Port Morseby controls the approaches to the north coast of Australia and makes supplying Darwin very difficult if in Japanese hands.  Rabaul is the gateway to the Central Pacific.  With it neutralized, or in Allied hands, the Allies have a southern route into this sensitive area for the Japanese.

The Central Pacific largely lacks really great bases, so its hard to defend from a mobile enemy.  Truk is the only base in this region that isn't fairly easy to invade and capture if the enemy brings enough carrier support.  Truk, unfortunately has little flank support.  The nearest decent bases are Rabaul and Guam which are a ways away and there are no great bases to the east, which is frequently where the Allied thrust is going to come from.  As a result, Truk can be neutralized and then it becomes a liability rather than an asset.

In the South Pacific, Suva is probably the most important base for the Allies.  There are a number of other bases that can be built up decently to the South, and Samoa is to the East.

To the North, Attu and Kiska can be a pain the Allied side if held by the Japanese, but they are fairly isolated and the Allies can take them back as soon as they want to commit the troops and lift to take them.  Dutch Harbor is a key base for the Allies, but Unalaska is also imortant as an air base since DH has little in the way of air capacity.

Further west, Ceylon is important for the British.  If in enemy hands, it gives the Japanese the ability to project power across much of the Indian Ocean.  However, it would be difficult for the Japanese to hold and easy for the British to pound it into submission from the southern part of India.  Calcutta is also an important British base in the region.  It's generally going to be the administrative hub for the reconquest of Burma.  For the Japanese, holding Rangoon is critical to holding Southeast Asia.  With Rangoon in friendly hands and adequately supplied, a decent sized army can be kept in the field in Burma.  Additionally, Rangoon is the gateway to Thailand and French Indochina for an army marching east.

For Japan, their control of the SRA also hinges on control of Formosa.  If they were to lose that island, the SRA would effectively be shut down.  It would also allow the western Allies to support China directly if they can capture a port on the mainland.

I know it doesn't answer the question, but it's sort of like asking if you could only have one airplane what would you take?  There are bases that are keys to regions, but no one base is most critical for the whole game.  That's one of the things I like about this game.  It takes balancing your forces over a vast area to succeed.  Too many eggs in one place and you invite disaster somewhere else.

Bill


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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 2:17:52 PM   
Knavey

 

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See,

I told you that you cannot narrow it down to just one! 

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 2:26:22 PM   
Feinder


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I think that's part of the irony, esp when Allies are on the offensive.  There are -no- most important bases to take (or Japan to hold).

If a base is over-stocked, you by-pass it.  Rabaul is a nice to have: great facilities.  But it's not worth the effort if it's heavily defended.  Just capture stuff around it, and by-pass it.  Same for Kwaj and Truk, and just about any other base.  Again, they're nice to have, but if I have to, I can get by with Kavieng or Admiralty or Eniwetok or wherever.

I will say tho, if playing CHS and Japan has invaded Northern Oz, holding Daly Waters is the place to do it.  Bilbow has thrown me back once again (kudos to him) - as Allies, it's nearly impossible to push enough supply from the south to mount an attack.  I've got one more option available to me (that I've been able to think of at least).  But if that doesn't work, the only option to "liberate" Northern Oz is to outflank it via New Guinea or around the west by Derby/Broome.

-F-

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 6:03:43 PM   
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As Allies, I say Port Moresby. It's pretty hard to get anything started without that base. Even if the IJ take Noumea, a strong Port Moresby would eventually make an IJ controlled Noumea untenable. Of course, if the IJ really want PM, they're going to get it in '42, so one could always pick another "must have" as conditions require.

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 7:08:58 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AirGriff

As Allies, I say Port Moresby. It's pretty hard to get anything started without that base. Even if the IJ take Noumea, a strong Port Moresby would eventually make an IJ controlled Noumea untenable. Of course, if the IJ really want PM, they're going to get it in '42, so one could always pick another "must have" as conditions require.


Port Moresby was a complete non-factor in both of the games I played, as were most of the other bases mentioned in this AAR (including Noumea, Suva, the Line Islands, Pago Pago, Truk, Tarawa, and a host of others). Feinder is right, quite often one side simply ignores the bases the other side deems most important.

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 8:01:35 PM   
AirGriff


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That's a good point Canoerabel, but the question was which base to take and hold.  I think, as Allies, you need to pick some base or set of bases to invest in on the very first day of the game, even if you know you are likely to lose the base in '42.  Your opponent may choose to ignore it or he may decide to come take it, but if he takes it he is going to need a sizeable force.  Either way, you have subtley forced him to react to you, and if you've really thought out the cause and effect of your decisions rather than just defending for the sake of defending, then you are that much closer to taking control of the initiative down the road.  Sitting back and doing nothing while you wait to react to HIS move is a losing move...not much fun, either. 

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 8:10:25 PM   
Nikademus


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Saipan. Level 7 base. B-29 death.



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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 8:13:08 PM   
Japan


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From the Allied Perspective I think India + Rabaoul,  or    India + Port Morseby  depending on situation.
If your oponent stops in Burma, you should expect him comming hard for South Pacific.

< Message edited by Japan -- 5/26/2009 8:14:49 PM >


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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 8:15:39 PM   
AirGriff


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You certainly have India wrapped up

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 8:20:19 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

The one your enemy most wants.

That's the correct answer.

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 8:26:49 PM   
Japan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AirGriff

You certainly have India wrapped up



hihi but You certainly have South Pacific wrapped up..
Will be interesting to see how the next months of 1944 goes..





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< Message edited by Japan -- 5/26/2009 8:29:47 PM >


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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 8:31:03 PM   
AirGriff


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Nah.  It's all a big diversion.  I'm attacking Russia in 2 weeks.

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 8:34:03 PM   
Japan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AirGriff

Nah.  It's all a big diversion.  I'm attacking Russia in 2 weeks.



hihi

a huge diversion..


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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 8:36:51 PM   
AirGriff


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I'd be churning out another turn for you right now, but I'm doing an online training course today.  blah.

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/26/2009 9:47:01 PM   
Barb


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Actually to me: Key to the PM is Gili-Gili 

As for other bases, those which cant be used to gain air superiority in the area are almost useless


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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/28/2009 1:23:15 AM   
engineer

 

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My 2 cents:

Japan:  Japan can't fight for long without the SRA and Japan can't get at a big piece of the SRA without Singapore so Singapore is the must have. 

Allies:  Feinder's point about no most-important bases is valid. There are general requirements and any number of bases fit. If the Japanese hold some strongly, others won't be so well held. It's the fundamental late war dilemma for the Japanese. Against the AI an Allied player can get to autovictory fighting on the perimeter of the empire and winning in SE Asia, but in a more typical campaign, the Allies are going to need to put hurt on the home islands to rack up strategic points in order to pull into a victory.  That would recommend either be someplace in the Marianas or Sakhalin(!!!).   For second place, I would nominate whichever base let's you close the SRA sea line of communications back to the Home Islands.  Herwin's recommendation of Okinawa fits both objectives.

< Message edited by engineer -- 5/28/2009 1:27:53 AM >

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/29/2009 3:52:03 AM   
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I knew there was no 1 answer, i was kind of wishing that this would have generated a pro's and con's discussion, which it has.  Japan can't win if it can't get oil and what not from  DEI.  Nor can win, in my opinion, if the us is able to base b-29's in Guam, Saipan, etc.   But America can't take Guam, saipan, etc, without a foothold in the Marshalls.  So where does that leave me.. Well really it has me picking 3 sites, when my question said pick just one.. Daaaa    So, i'd say the Mariannas. (spelling is off i know)  Now that assumes that the Japanese can keep the allies from inroads into the DEI...   Holding the Marianas (diffrent spelling) keeps them out of the PI's, which keeps the sea lanes to the DEI open... So Marianas - Final Answer...

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RE: most important location/base ? - 5/29/2009 5:33:49 AM   
stuman


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But on the other hand.......

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