1.04b1 : Civilian ships don't fire on kaltors

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds 1 Series >> Tech Support >> 1.04b1 : Civilian ships don't fire on kaltors

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1.04b1 : Civilian ships don't fire on kaltors - 4/21/2010 7:23:49 PM

taltamir

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I have a planet with a brisk amount of trade with 20 trade ships around it... and 2 GIANT kaltors (max size now)... they just sit there and eat ship after ship... they are surrounded by 20 ships but none of them are actually firing on the damn things... they all run away WITHOUT firing... only when the kaltor catches them and starts damaging them do they begin to fire...

they should fire WHILE running away or WHILE passing by... as long as it is an enemy in range they should fire on it. (thats the whole point of giving them a gun).

One ship wouldn't kill it, but hundreds passing back and forth could eventually... or at least whittle down its health somewhat so that my military can come in and help... speaking of, fleets should be more proactive about killing giant space bugs in your colonized systems.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 4/21/2010 7:24:12 PM >

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Post #: 1

RE: 1.04b1 : Civilian ships don't fire on kaltors - 5/4/2010 9:38:31 AM

taltamir

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so, did anyone see this report? because it got pushed out of the front page by others.

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Post #: 2

RE: 1.04b1 : Civilian ships don't fire on kaltors - 5/4/2010 10:54:46 AM

Rustyallan

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Joined: 4/27/2010
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Private ships shouldn't fire unless actually attacked because it would lower relations with a neutral empire. Now to define "attacked." I would say anytime they are pursued, they are being attacked and should fire.

Ideally, the AI would say: Bug, kill! Pirate, smash! You declared war on us, spitball! all while evading. They might not kill it, but perhaps soften it up some.

I think the main thing that your example shows though is the fleet automation routines are not forming a fleet of the nearest no-mission and patrol ships and attacking them, then disbanding the fleet to go back to their local patrols. This should happen any time large monsters are detected or pirates are harassing a system. If could even be trigger when pirates destroy a colony ship that's closing to land.

If it just sent ships in one at a time, they'd get taken apart easily. That's probably happened already even.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 3

RE: 1.04b1 : Civilian ships don't fire on kaltors - 5/4/2010 11:18:19 AM

taltamir

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quote:

Private ships shouldn't fire unless actually attacked because it would lower relations with a neutral empire. Now to define "attacked." I would say anytime they are pursued, they are being attacked and should fire.

No, private ships should not fire on NEUTRAL empires unless attacked.... they SHOULD fire on ANY space monster within range... that is because space monsters: 1. Ignore shields 2. Does not "deal damage" and thus "attack" until they are on top of the freighter.

All freighters should shoot at all HOSTILES within range, that means: 1. empires at war with me 2. pirates 3. monsters

A neutral empire is not a hostile and shouldn't be fired upon. (unless it fires first) And they should escape WHILE shooting. Shooting ONLY when you take damage is useless because they die almost instantly. 20 freighters with 1 gun each are actually somewhat dangerous to small raiders.

quote:

I think the main thing that your example shows though is the fleet automation routines are not forming a fleet of the nearest no-mission and patrol ships and attacking them, then disbanding the fleet to go back to their local patrols. This should happen any time large monsters are detected or pirates are harassing a system. If could even be trigger when pirates destroy a colony ship that's closing to land.

This has NOTHING to do with fleets... It has to do with FREIGHTERS, you know, those CIVILIANS that ship stuff. The AI and I control MILITARY ships just fine. I am talking stricktly about civilian ships. Large freighter, medium freighter, small freighter, and passenger ships. Which have ONE and ONLY one weapon each.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Rustyallan)

Post #: 4

RE: 1.04b1 : Civilian ships don't fire on kaltors - 5/4/2010 12:43:14 PM

Rustyallan

Posts: 193
Joined: 4/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

No, private ships should not fire on NEUTRAL empires unless attacked.... they SHOULD fire on ANY space monster within range... that is because space monsters: 1. Ignore shields 2. Does not "deal damage" and thus "attack" until they are on top of the freighter.

All freighters should shoot at all HOSTILES within range, that means: 1. empires at war with me 2. pirates 3. monsters

A neutral empire is not a hostile and shouldn't be fired upon. (unless it fires first) And they should escape WHILE shooting. Shooting ONLY when you take damage is useless because they die almost instantly. 20 freighters with 1 gun each are actually somewhat dangerous to small raiders.

is a longer and more detailed version of

quote:

Ideally, the AI would say: Bug, kill! Pirate, smash! You declared war on us, spitball! all while evading. They might not kill it, but perhaps soften it up some.

quote:

quote:

I think the main thing that your example shows though is the fleet automation routines are not forming a fleet of the nearest no-mission and patrol ships and attacking them, then disbanding the fleet to go back to their local patrols. This should happen any time large monsters are detected or pirates are harassing a system. If could even be trigger when pirates destroy a colony ship that's closing to land.
This has NOTHING to do with fleets... It has to do with FREIGHTERS, you know, those CIVILIANS that ship stuff. The AI and I control MILITARY ships just fine. I am talking stricktly about civilian ships. Large freighter, medium freighter, small freighter, and passenger ships. Which have ONE and ONLY one weapon each.

Let's say that there's a giant kaltor, or a couple pirate ships blocking access to a planet's port. There are only one or two private vessels there and they get eaten since their one weapon can't do enough damage and they're too slow to get away. Now along comes another freighter which goes poof as well. Where's the fleet to clean up the mess so that the planet/mine/base can be reached?

If there are multiple private vessels and they are all evading the enemy as they are supposed to. That means that aside from the one being pursued, they are not likely to get more than one shot off even if they attack. How does this kill the enemy?

Using the existing fleet mechanics, we are currently notified when hostile nations are intruding on our systems and it is suggested that we remove them with an available fleet. (or it is sent automatically if on full auto.) I suggest that Monsters of Unusual Size and concentrations of pirate ships be added to the list of suggested targets for fleet attacks. Normal monsters and single pirates can be left to normal patrol vessels, but larger monsters and multiple pirates should be valid fleet targets.

The other case where a fleet might be needed is a colony destination with a native population. Most of the time, I find pirates guarding the planet and my colony ship gets destroyed. Since we already get fleet attack suggestions for pirate bases, concentrations of pirates detected outside our colonized systems should be added to the list of targets.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 5

RE: 1.04b1 : Civilian ships don't fire on kaltors - 5/4/2010 12:47:40 PM

taltamir

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I have seen a giant (and I mean GIANT, that thing was as big as a planet) keltor munching up freighter after freighter on a high traffic planet... it slaughter any fleet that came after it for a good while before finally a large enough fleet came to finish it off.

It was often surrounded by DOZENS of freighters, but NONE of them were shooting it because it did not DAMAGE them yet... (and they only get one shot before dying once it does start damaging them) if it is in range, shoot at it.

quote:

Ideally, the AI would say: Bug, kill! Pirate, smash! You declared war on us, spitball! all while evading. They might not kill it, but perhaps soften it up some.

That is all I can ask for... shoot at obvious hostiles in range while escaping them. Don't only shoot hostiles that have damaged you.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Rustyallan)

Post #: 6

RE: 1.04b1 : Civilian ships don't fire on kaltors - 5/4/2010 1:43:45 PM

Rustyallan

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Joined: 4/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I have seen a giant (and I mean GIANT, that thing was as big as a planet) keltor munching up freighter after freighter on a high traffic planet... it slaughter any fleet that came after it for a good while before finally a large enough fleet came to finish it off.

It was often surrounded by DOZENS of freighters, but NONE of them were shooting it because it did not DAMAGE them yet... (and they only get one shot before dying once it does start damaging them) if it is in range, shoot at it.

Civilian ships should be evading by default. How close do they need to get before they start evading though? It sounds like they were getting right up to it before realizing "Oh, hey guys! There's giant bug that's bigger than us! Do you think we should maybe move away from it?"

quote:

quote:

Ideally, the AI would say: Bug, kill! Pirate, smash! You declared war on us, spitball! all while evading. They might not kill it, but perhaps soften it up some.
That is all I can ask for... shoot at obvious hostiles in range while escaping them. Don't only shoot hostiles that have damaged you.

Add firing to the evasion script. Go ahead and run away, but you might as well take a few potshots at it over your shoulder while it's in range. Maybe you'll get lucky and nail it between the eyes. Talk about a trophy to show off at the port!

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 7

RE: 1.04b1 : Civilian ships don't fire on kaltors - 5/4/2010 5:18:33 PM

Fishman

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Is this a new behavior added to 1.04 or something? Because I never saw it in 1.03, where my freighters were buttorping just fine.

(in reply to Rustyallan)

Post #: 8

RE: 1.04b1 : Civilian ships don't fire on kaltors - 5/4/2010 5:42:54 PM

taltamir

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I first noticed it with 1.04b1 where I made this thread (and they were armed with lasers I think)... recently in a 1.04.4 game where I armed them with torpedoes I saw a freighter or two actually go into "standoff" where they hover just at max range of a NON space slug and shoot at it repeatedly; not sure what they do with keltors... I guess I can run some tests.

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I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 9

RE: 1.04b1 : Civilian ships don't fire on kaltors - 5/5/2010 9:48:01 AM

taltamir

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Joined: 4/2/2010
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alright, I have confirmed this by placing space monsters and freighters with the editor...

it doesn't matter what they are armed with; maxos blaster to plasma thunderbolt torpedoes.

Civilian ships (freighters) near a SAND slug will go into standoff mode, maintaining max weapon range from it while firing at it until it dies or they run low on fuel. This actually makes sense, it cannot harm them as long as they are in space, and if they blow it up they can finish their delivery and make some money. certainly cheaper then wasting a trade trip.

Civlians near a giant keltor will escape WITHOUT firing at it... they will ONLY begin firing at it when it starts damaging it, at which point they only get a few shots off before dying. Even if the keltor is chasing them specifically, they do not fire until they take damage.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 10

RE: 1.04b1 : Civilian ships don't fire on kaltors - 5/5/2010 2:30:39 PM

Rustyallan

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Joined: 4/27/2010
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That is definitely sounding like a bug. Or at least very inconsistent behavior. If no one checks the other monsters, I'll do so when I finish the yard work.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 11