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How to use Tank Destroyers

 
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How to use Tank Destroyers - 9/11/2002 8:19:41 AM   
John Galt

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 1/31/2001
From: Salem, NH, USA
Status: offline 		What is your preferred method for using tank destroyers? Do you keep them together? Assign one each to a platoon of tanks? I have found that when they get shot at they usually die easily!

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Post #: 1
- 9/11/2002 9:25:18 AM   
JediMessiah

 

Posts: 157
Joined: 3/1/2001
From: Elmhurst, Il, USA
Status: offline 		depends on the td....

if its a big 'un i like to use em as mobile at-bunkers, plant em up on a hill and move em after theyve worn out their welcome, provide a good cover fire and overwatch for the tanks


the smaller guys i like to either plant on the backside of a hill for a crossfire, or leave em in reserve for an extra added punch for tank assaults or extra firepower in a pinch


tho im interested in others opinions as well....


-jedimessiah

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Post #: 2
- 9/11/2002 9:34:02 AM   
Hades

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I don't really like using TDs if there is high visiblity because they are bullet magents but if it is like 3 vis, I love o park one behind a hill or trees and watch the tanks die.

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- 9/11/2002 12:12:46 PM   
OKW-73

 

Posts: 237
Joined: 9/1/2001
From: Cyberspace, Finland
Status: offline 		Im not sure placing TD's on hill tops are good idea...just like Hades did say they are bullet magnets, but instead i like setting up several ambushes with them if possible, but this all depends what kind of terrain we have of course...im not a big fan of TD's anyway as i prefer tanks & AT guns more.

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Post #: 4
- 9/11/2002 8:23:44 PM   
Katana

 

Posts: 570
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		Good point, OKW. In my experience, most of the time a TD is too vulnerable to go hunting for tanks and less cost efficient than an AT-gun and transport in ambush or hilltop tactics.

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- 9/11/2002 10:54:44 PM   
challenge

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		I was, at one time, in love with the concept of the [I]Tank Destroyer[/I]. The idea of an AFV designed for the sole purpose of takng out other AFVs was fascinating. Then I got a book about the real thing and couldn't figure out who in their right mind would design something that looked so poorly built for the task...

Early TDs of almost every nation seem lightly armored to go after something like a medium tank: the guns seem small (37, 45, 47 mm) for a mounted platform and the armor is like paper compared to the capabilities of the weapons on the monsters they are supposed to kill. :eek: Later ones are much better for the task.

So early years I use the TD as a shoot and scoot AT gun supporting infantry advances (as sort of an Assault AT Gun role) or to set up ambushes in areas where the opposition can't see them until they top the rise or round a corner. Later war versions are tough enough to move in with the rest of the armor and then I use them to help protect the AGs and infantry against the opposition's armor.

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Post #: 6
- 9/12/2002 4:03:21 PM   
Jacc

 

Posts: 265
Joined: 4/30/2001
From: Viikki Imperium
Status: offline 		I do not use TDs all that often, however, they have a place in my tactics if included. The first point to keep in mind is that most TDs stand no chance in direct tank vs. tank shootout battles - even if they are able to hit the enemy accurately (rarely so), they have no cover themselves.
Instead, the TDs are excellent as a mobile defensive platform, a task that can easily be merged into advance missions. I place TDs here and there, between my "true" reserves/rear positions and front lines. Whenever situation is critical, a well-covered TD fires some shots from well behind the lines - sometimes to take out the enemy, sometimes just to harass and damage. Then the vehicle slippes away, again attacking from a different location. Better armoured units stand near the frontlines.
Whenever T-34s break through my lines, I call in my loyal JPz-IV/70s, who (well covered) take care of those roaming free between my lines. Quite a classic defence arrangement, but the mobility of the TDs gives them certain advantages over AT guns.

As a rule of thumb, I would say that less armoured units with a potent gun - IOW TDs - should stay a bit behind the front units and tanks, while providing sniper fire and cover.

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Post #: 7
- 9/13/2002 3:39:25 AM   
John Galt

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 1/31/2001
From: Salem, NH, USA
Status: offline 		It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to buy a TD when you could buy a tank!

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Post #: 8
Ohh - 9/13/2002 4:11:11 AM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by John Galt
[B]It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to buy a TD when you could buy a tank! [/B][/QUOTE]
Them's fighting words. I dare you to play me as the Russians after June 1943 when the get the Light tanks Destroyer SU-57. I will just take tank destroyers, infantry and some other light vehicles, NO "Tanks". And we will see what happens. :)

Trust me the tank destoryer has a place int he ranks. The main reason is that most tank destoryers have stabalizers. What do stabalizers do you ask. Well stabalizers allow you to move and get all your shots. You know how you will start to move an AFV and have 4 to 5 shots with your main gun and after you move it you only have 2 to 3 shots left. Well with a stabalizer you don't loose thoughs shoots. So if you start out with 6 shoots and move 20 hexes you still have six shots at the end of your movement. Granted you have lousy to hits but hey. Also most TD's have much better movement.

I use TD's in groups of 2-3, always trying to keep them hidden if posible, behind tree, and hills. When your opponent leaves a tank out in the open now you do the shoot and scoot. Move out one of your TD's to a firing position (try to move it into trees, rough, slop, or orchard). When the opposing tank fires on it it will miss unless it is a really good late model tank 1945. Now move your second TD out to a firing position, the opposing tank will fire at the new target and loose continueing fire bonus on the first TD. Now switch back to the first TD and fire on the tank until it fires back at TD #1. Then switch to TD#2 and fire on the tank again. By this time the tank is ussually suppress and you have used up 3 to 4 shots from each TD. Now move out TD #3 and toast the little tank. Then move all TD's back into the trees hidden. Fun, Fun, Fun. :):D :p

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Post #: 9
- 9/13/2002 5:18:05 AM   
John Galt

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 1/31/2001
From: Salem, NH, USA
Status: offline 		Gary, I knew you'd rise to the bait and give up something good!!

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Experience is the teacher that gives the test first and the lesson last.

John Galt

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Post #: 10
- 9/13/2002 5:20:09 AM   
JediMessiah

 

Posts: 157
Joined: 3/1/2001
From: Elmhurst, Il, USA
Status: offline 		BELIEVE HIM! hordes, Hordes , HORDES of those lil buggers


im having su-57 nightmares


hehe


-jedimessiah

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Post #: 11
Re: Ohh - 9/13/2002 6:09:16 AM   
john g

 

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gary Tatro
[B]
Them's fighting words. I dare you to play me as the Russians after June 1943 when the get the Light tanks Destroyer SU-57. I will just take tank destroyers, infantry and some other light vehicles, NO "Tanks". And we will see what happens. :)

I use TD's in groups of 2-3, always trying to keep them hidden if posible, behind tree, and hills. When your opponent leaves a tank out in the open now you do the shoot and scoot. Move out one of your TD's to a firing position (try to move it into trees, rough, slop, or orchard). When the opposing tank fires on it it will miss unless it is a really good late model tank 1945. Now move your second TD out to a firing position, the opposing tank will fire at the new target and loose continueing fire bonus on the first TD. Now switch back to the first TD and fire on the tank until it fires back at TD #1. Then switch to TD#2 and fire on the tank again. By this time the tank is ussually suppress and you have used up 3 to 4 shots from each TD. Now move out TD #3 and toast the little tank. Then move all TD's back into the trees hidden. Fun, Fun, Fun. :):D :p [/B][/QUOTE]

Even though you like using TD's you are still using them wrong.

Thin skinned TD's should never be thought of as tanks, they are coup de gras weapons. After you suppress the target with mortar fire, airstrike etc, then move the TDs up to finish off the target before it regains the ability to fire back then scoot back under cover. Suppress the next target and move the TDs to finish that one off. The target should never have the ability to shoot back.

Heavy TDs like the JagdPanther are a different story, they can take hits and shug off return fire, they are more like turretless tanks than US doctrine turreted tank destroyers.
thanks, John.

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Post #: 12
Re: Re: Ohh - 9/13/2002 8:09:01 AM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by john g
[B]

Even though you like using TD's you are still using them wrong.

Thin skinned TD's should never be thought of as tanks, they are coup de gras weapons. After you suppress the target with mortar fire, airstrike etc, then move the TDs up to finish off the target before it regains the ability to fire back then scoot back under cover. Suppress the next target and move the TDs to finish that one off. The target should never have the ability to shoot back.

Heavy TDs like the JagdPanther are a different story, they can take hits and shug off return fire, they are more like turretless tanks than US doctrine turreted tank destroyers.
thanks, John. [/B][/QUOTE]

Granted, but you miss one of the obvious needs, the country you are playing needs a heavy tank destroyer, Germany really is the only country that has Heavy tank destroyers that can take a frontal shot.

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Post #: 13
Re: Re: Re: Ohh - 9/13/2002 8:31:41 AM   
john g

 

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gary Tatro
[B]

Granted, but you miss one of the obvious needs, the country you are playing needs a heavy tank destroyer, Germany really is the only country that has Heavy tank destroyers that can take a frontal shot. [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't see the need for a heavy TD, as long as you have arty to suppress the enemy, anything mounting a gun can kill the supressed tanks. With high mobility to get where they are needed and just enough armor to keep the infantry weapons from killing them.

The difficulties of syncing TD attacks are one of the reasons that the US abandoned the tank destroyer doctrine they had built up before the war and went to the MBT concept.

Currently the doctrine seems skewed, modern US tanks giving up carrying he rounds for the main gun, now they are back to being almost entirely AT weapons.
thanks, John.

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Post #: 14
- 9/13/2002 10:12:38 PM   
Jacc

 

Posts: 265
Joined: 4/30/2001
From: Viikki Imperium
Status: offline 		Germany needs HTDs. OK, heavy tank destroyers are no tanks nor real TDs, but are quite a good purchase anyway. Long-barreled 88mm has extremely limited mobility: Elefant, Ferdinand and King Tiger are too slow, AT gun totally immobile (and too large - tends to get killed every time it opens fire). Nashorn is OK, but has open top. Jagdpanther, OTOH, is quick and nasty opponent. It offers the capability to carry the heavy gun quickly around the battlefield. I won't comment on Jagdtiger - let's just say I used them once, and have since refused to touch them.

It's true the heavy TDs the Germans have are more tanks than "classic" TDs, but StuG series was officially regarded as artillery. Germans were eager to find new methods and usages for old concepts.

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Post #: 15
- 9/14/2002 12:17:37 AM   
OKW-73

 

Posts: 237
Joined: 9/1/2001
From: Cyberspace, Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jacc
[B]Germany needs HTDs. OK, heavy tank destroyers are no tanks nor real TDs, but are quite a good purchase anyway. Long-barreled 88mm has extremely limited mobility: Elefant, Ferdinand and King Tiger are too slow, AT gun totally immobile (and too large - tends to get killed every time it opens fire). Nashorn is OK, but has open top. Jagdpanther, OTOH, is quick and nasty opponent. It offers the capability to carry the heavy gun quickly around the battlefield. I won't comment on Jagdtiger - let's just say I used them once, and have since refused to touch them.

It's true the heavy TDs the Germans have are more tanks than "classic" TDs, but StuG series was officially regarded as artillery. Germans were eager to find new methods and usages for old concepts. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, i did learn be very careful with Ferdinands when i did play with Russians in Kursk scenario...enemy did have 3 Ferdinands and my T-34's and KV-1's were destroyed one by one by these accurate & deadly steel monsters...it was so frustrating shoot them in front (flanking was impossible due the situation) and notice that its quite impossible penetrate armour but after many turns of hard fighting i finally got one Ferdinand down with molotov coctails when it did come too near my positions and things did start to change a bit on that part of front, but i learned to respect Ferdinands by hard way no matter how extremely limited mobility they have...

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Post #: 16
- 9/20/2002 9:30:38 PM   
AbsntMndedProf


Posts: 1780
Joined: 7/6/2001
From: Boston, Massachusetts
Status: offline 		Gary Tatro posted:

"You know how you will start to move an AFV and have 4 to 5 shots with your main gun and after you move it you only have 2 to 3 shots left. Well with a stabalizer you don't loose thoughs shoots."

Interesting! When I buy Nashorn TDs, if they move more than a couple of hexes, they start to lose shots. Did they lack stabalizers?

Eric Maietta

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Post #: 17
- 9/20/2002 10:57:19 PM   
Jacc

 

Posts: 265
Joined: 4/30/2001
From: Viikki Imperium
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by OKW-73
[B]

Well, i did learn be very careful with Ferdinands when i did play with Russians in Kursk scenario...enemy did have 3 Ferdinands and my T-34's and KV-1's were destroyed one by one by these accurate & deadly steel monsters...it was so frustrating shoot them in front (flanking was impossible due the situation) and notice that its quite impossible penetrate armour but after many turns of hard fighting i finally got one Ferdinand down with molotov coctails when it did come too near my positions and things did start to change a bit on that part of front, but i learned to respect Ferdinands by hard way no matter how extremely limited mobility they have... [/B][/QUOTE]

Yup! But Ferdinand can be dealt with infantry, since it lacks close support machine gun. Historically Russians, once they spotted one, laid artillery fire and smoke on one, then moved in with infantry. Against heavy TD's that's sometimes the only tactic which really works. I've also met Elefants sometimes in 1943 battles, and it was a catastrophe to my tank company. Finally used just my artillery to pounce one and assaulted it. A recommended tactic, if enemy infantry can be dealt with. If not - then you're in trouble.

Light TDs are peace of cake for almost any medium tank, not to mention heavy tanks. Just pray you'll hit and they don't. One shot can often render M18 and M36 into uncapable state to continue battle.

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