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Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/26/2011 12:04:32 AM   
Saros

 

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 60 minutes

---KB was 2 hexes away how does this work?
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 48
B5N2 Kate x 72
D3A1 Val x 135



Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 8 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged
D3A1 Val: 8 destroyed, 23 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
A-20A Havoc: 2 destroyed on ground
B-17D Fortress: 3 destroyed on ground
P-40B Warhawk: 4 destroyed on ground
B-18A Bolo: 2 destroyed on ground
SBD-1 Dauntless: 3 destroyed on ground
PBY-5 Catalina: 6 destroyed on ground
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground
P-36A Mohawk: 1 destroyed on ground
R3D-2: 1 destroyed on ground
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed on ground
O-47A: 1 destroyed on ground
SNJ-3 Texan: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 1
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 4, on fire
AS Pelias, Bomb hits 1
CM Oglala
DM Gamble
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 3
DM Ramsay, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DM Preble
AV Tangier
DD Worden, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 4, on fire
xAKL Manini
AV Curtiss
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 2
CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Chew, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 3, on fire
BB California, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
DD Cummings, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Raleigh, Bomb hits 1


Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Repair Shipyard hits 2
Airbase hits 38
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 170
Port hits 13
Port fuel hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
16 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
13 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb

8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
16 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb

10 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
16 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
10 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
17 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
13 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
6 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
11 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
10 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
2 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
7 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can anyone explain why my Kates refused to carry torpedoes in the initial PH attack? 17/72 is not a good number and even though those bomb hits are all 800kg bombs torpedoes would have been a LOT more effective.
As it is chances for a second day strike are not good as there are several barely hurt BB's that will no doubt be after me and risking the KB is something i'm not keen to do.
Post #: 1
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/26/2011 12:40:40 AM   
wdolson

 

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Something carried torpedoes because the California took two. 

On port attack there are a number of randoms to check and see if torpedo planes will carry bombs or torpedoes.  For the PH attack the randoms are skewed towards torpedoes, but not guaranteed.  At the real PH attack a number of Kates were carrying 800 Kg bombs and only the most experienced crews had torpedoes.

It looks like the randoms just went the wrong way for you.

Getting something like the PH attack to reproduce in software without hard coding everything to play out exactly like the real thing (which wouldn't be much fun) is very difficult.

Bill


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(in reply to Saros)
Post #: 2
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/26/2011 12:59:59 AM   
Saros

 

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Looking back over the turn it appears that the 'topedoes' selection on he bomber group screen is red on all but one carrier (likely the 17 torpedo carrying kates.) It switches to green if they are put on naval attack but stays red if left on port attack. The CV all have full torpedo loads and I switched out the crappy commanders for better ones so i'm not too sure what is causing this. Is it significant even?

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 3
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/26/2011 1:02:28 AM   
Nomad


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From: West Yellowstone, Montana
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And then you can see attacks like this:
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 07, 41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 124 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 41 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 42
A6M2-N Rufe x 2
B5N2 Kate x 144
D3A1 Val x 126



Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed by flak
B5N2 Kate: 18 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 6 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Val: 9 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
O-47A: 1 destroyed on ground
B-17E Fortress: 2 destroyed on ground
PBY-5 Catalina: 9 destroyed on ground
B-18A Bolo: 8 destroyed on ground
A-20A Havoc: 2 destroyed on ground
P-40B Warhawk: 7 destroyed on ground
F4F-3 Wildcat: 3 destroyed on ground
SBD-1 Dauntless: 3 destroyed on ground
B-17D Fortress: 3 destroyed on ground
C-33: 1 destroyed on ground
P-36A Mohawk: 3 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 4, heavy fires
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB California, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
AV Curtiss, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
DMS Trevor, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Honolulu, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Litchfield, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Case, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
DD Monaghan, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Dewey, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
CL St. Louis, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DM Montgomery, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CA San Francisco, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Mugford, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Raleigh, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Conyngham, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AV Tangier, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Phoenix, Torpedo hits 2
PT-23, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Blue, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Helena, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Reid, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CL Detroit, Bomb hits 1
DM Pruitt, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Cummings, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AD Rigel, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Schley, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AK Castor, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage


Allied ground losses:
18 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled


Repair Shipyard hits 9
Manpower hits 6
Fires 3829
Airbase hits 49
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 177

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
12 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
24 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
8 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
5 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 15000 feet
12 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
16 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
5 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 15000 feet
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
15 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
15 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
11 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
10 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
10 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
7 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
11 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb

45 out of 50 torpedoes hit.

_____________________________


(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 4
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/26/2011 8:58:28 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saros

Looking back over the turn it appears that the 'topedoes' selection on he bomber group screen is red on all but one carrier (likely the 17 torpedo carrying kates.) It switches to green if they are put on naval attack but stays red if left on port attack. The CV all have full torpedo loads and I switched out the crappy commanders for better ones so i'm not too sure what is causing this. Is it significant even?


Saros, just for info: never set your carrier groups to land attack as a primary.
Adopting this habit can be the reason for brutal defeats.

Carrier group: Naval attack as a primary, everything else is a secondary mission.

I believe that the torpedo selection was red because of you setting port attack on a promary where torps are not
the default loadout, as has been said before the type of weapon delivered on target depends on dice rolls, but don´t
worry, an 800kg bomb can ruin a BBs day.

_____________________________


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Post #: 5
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/26/2011 4:43:06 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
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From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
Doesn't the initial Pearl Harbor attack have to be a port attack? The ships are all disbanded in port, so how else can they be hit? 

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 6
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/26/2011 5:36:36 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
You mean as primary? Why?

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Post #: 7
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/26/2011 6:24:15 PM   
PresterJohn001


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Joined: 8/11/2009
Status: offline
Nomad,

How you get those Rufes? Something not right there...

and for that matter fires and that number of runway hits...

< Message edited by PresterJohn -- 1/26/2011 6:26:44 PM >

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 8
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/26/2011 8:01:11 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PresterJohn

Nomad,

How you get those Rufes? Something not right there...

and for that matter fires and that number of runway hits...


You would have to talk to Andy Mac, it is from an ironman AI game I started but never used. I only did the first historical turn.

_____________________________


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Post #: 9
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/27/2011 10:07:17 AM   
Saros

 

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Joined: 12/18/2010
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I wouldn't normally have port attack as a primary but I just left the KB alone on its default orders as I was afraid something bad (like this) would happen. This ought to be an interesting early game as force Z is still alive as well lots more allied BB's floating around than normal. Oh and no planes flew at the phillipines so no easy airfield strikes there either!

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 10
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/27/2011 11:20:22 AM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad


quote:

ORIGINAL: PresterJohn

Nomad,

How you get those Rufes? Something not right there...

and for that matter fires and that number of runway hits...


You would have to talk to Andy Mac, it is from an ironman AI game I started but never used. I only did the first historical turn.



I played an Ironman to Feb '43 and am in a second one in May '42.

Rufes fly as escorts all the time and also as CAP over almost every Jap BB and cruiser.

They are a real PITA as they seem to have better pilots than the carrier zeroes.

_____________________________

Hans


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Post #: 11
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/27/2011 5:00:46 PM   
Mundy


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From: Neenah
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Out of about six starts of the "Quiet China" scenario against the AI, I've seen an all-bomb attack happen once. I tried it again, and the torps showed again. I figure it's just the luck of the draw, so I don't sweat such things anymore.

Ed-

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 12
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/27/2011 5:35:55 PM   
PresterJohn001


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad


quote:

ORIGINAL: PresterJohn

Nomad,

How you get those Rufes? Something not right there...

and for that matter fires and that number of runway hits...


You would have to talk to Andy Mac, it is from an ironman AI game I started but never used. I only did the first historical turn.



I played an Ironman to Feb '43 and am in a second one in May '42.

Rufes fly as escorts all the time and also as CAP over almost every Jap BB and cruiser.

They are a real PITA as they seem to have better pilots than the carrier zeroes.



It was their inclusion on the Pearl Harbour Attack Dec '41 that i was wondering about

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 13
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/27/2011 5:57:13 PM   
oldman45


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From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline
I know I am hijacking but I always get a laugh when I see this in a combat report for PH. "BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk" Pretty amazing for a ship sitting in drydock

Continue with your thread.

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RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/27/2011 6:51:11 PM   
inqistor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PresterJohn

Nomad,

How you get those Rufes? Something not right there...

and for that matter fires and that number of runway hits...


In IRONMAN quite a lot devices are accelerated. There are RUFEs everywhere (I see them over Miri invasion), more CVLs (I see at least 2 Baby-KB), and for example Yamato is already finished.
Fires is probably City Attack. There is Industry at PH.

(in reply to PresterJohn001)
Post #: 15
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/29/2011 8:38:53 PM   
dr.hal


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From: Covington LA via Montreal!
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Oldman45 points out something that is of interest, but it goes well beyond the Pennsylvania.... The USN at Pearl habitually moored their BBs in pairs to the same mooring, thus only the outside ship could be hit by a torpedo, which indeed is exactly what happened. The Japs were WELL AWARE of this and it impacted very heavily on their decision NOT to have all Kates use torpedoes. They did not want the inner row of ships, be they BBs or otherwise to go unharmed. A further mitigating factor was the fact that Pearl is shallow, as little as 40 feet (I was stationed there for over two years, I know!), where torpedoes when dropped by air sink to at least 60 feet before rising to the surface (yes, at the time they would porpoise badly). The Japs only came out with a different type that would sink to less than "20 meters" and started delivery to the CVs in October of '41, they simply didn't have enough to go around! I know about Toronto and the Brits, but they used slow Swordfish with smaller torpedoes and the Kate's attack speed was very high by comparison, this was a critical factor in the sink rate of the launched torpedo. The game simply ignores all of this for the sake of simplicity. However it does yield some really impossible results for the Japanese at Pearl, which with a few strokes within the first turn programming could be tweaked. I've seen on action report after action report in games where ALL eight BBs at Pearl were torpedoed, and while the Penn was in drydock, Arizona, Tennessee and Maryland were all inboard of other ships. Just some thoughts... Hal

(in reply to inqistor)
Post #: 16
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/30/2011 1:00:30 AM   
wdolson

 

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I think the Canadians would be a bit ticked off if the RN attacked Toronto.  Sailing a hostile fleet up the St. Lawrence Waterway would be a feat too.

I think you meant Taranto: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taranto

I agree with your points about the torpedoes and the disposition of US ships at Pearl.  The code just isn't structured to handle ship locations and such.  We may have been able to put PA in the shipyard and made it invulnerable to torpedo attack, but there was only so much effort we were going to put into a once off event.  It is the first thing players see when they play the grand campaign, but it's only the first day of a potentially 1634 turn game.  We wanted to focus on making the other 1633 turns good too.  We didn't have the time or manpower to do everything.

Bill


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RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/30/2011 1:37:56 AM   
dr.hal


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Thanks Bill, and yes of course Taranto (it's been a long day)... but you did put a lot into the first turn disposition so that events could unfold much as they did on that "day of infamy" (let's face it you set up the entire Pacific and Indian Oceans as they were on that one day!). Yet, as I don't know much about the programming that went on behind the scenes, maybe it was beyond the game's realm to allow for this "one" time event (although if a "shipyard" is attacked with craft in it by air assets, I would expect them not to be hit by too many torpedoes!).

However, in many ways you are a victim of your own success. There has been SO much attention to detail within this game, down to the detailed differentiation between the Dutch ships (which attracted my attention to the Victory Games board version of this game, which got that details wrong), that something so foundational to the whole war, the attack on PH, which every school kid in the USA knows something about (well, maybe) might have warranted special attention, or special rules (beyond the restrictions given to the Allied player on the first turn's movements). Certainly the first of the 1634 potential turns is of paramount importance.

But this is not a complaint, simply an observation, as in my recent and ongoing game with Paul, the USS Pennsylvania too took a torpedo while in dry dock. Those Japs sure can make things difficult. Hal

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RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/30/2011 1:41:12 AM   
Alfred

 

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Which is precisely why there is a December 8th start scenario.

Alfred

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Post #: 19
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/30/2011 2:58:11 PM   
dr.hal


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Thanks Alfred, your input is certainly spot-on. It does allow for the players to obtain a historical outcome at Pearl. However, your input underscores my point. You have reduced the concept to its most simplistic form, all or nothing, or in other words, black or white, with no gray allowed. For players to obtain a “realistic” result at PH (note I say realistic, not historical) then they have but one alternative, to accept the game starting on the 8th, and thus accepting all the Japanese moves though out the entire theater (Indian and Pacific Oceans). This greatly limits in my view the playability of the game. However the alternative, using the 7th as the start date virtually guarantees that the results at Pearl will be unrealistic, with ships being hit by torpedoes (the most destructive of weapons that a plane can carry – despite the results from the USS Arizona) that simple could not have happen given what we all know was the situation at Pearl (and as I’ve said, the Japs were well aware of this). My only point in all of this is that it would have been nice to have some restrictions on the impact of the raid on Pearl to bring about more realistic results and STILL have the option for players to rethink some of the other Japanese moves. That’s all. The actual outcome at Pearl supports the fact that most of the ships were immune from torpedo hits, as only the Oklahoma, West Virginia and Utah (target ship at the time) had confirmed hits while the California, initially reported to be hit by two torpedoes is under dispute. Hal

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 20
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/30/2011 7:46:20 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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Hal. I think that if you were to average the PH attack results form all games you would find that realistic results are approximated in the game. I know that it is tough to accept that all BBs could end up torpedoed in the attack, but it is also possible that no BBs will be sunk. 

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 21
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 1/30/2011 8:19:40 PM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Hal. I think that if you were to average the PH attack results form all games you would find that realistic results are approximated in the game. I know that it is tough to accept that all BBs could end up torpedoed in the attack, but it is also possible that no BBs will be sunk. 


Very possible to have no BB's sunk at Pearl. Just ask our Japanese 2x2 PBEM opponents.

_____________________________

Mike

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"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 22
RE: Pearl harbor torpedo free! - 2/2/2011 4:22:42 PM   
dr.hal


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Thanks Bradfordkay I appreciate you responding. Well I have yet to see an after action report that didn't have miracles attached to it. In my own game the Pennsylvania got it again by a torpedo, while in dry dock.... But I guess one could argue that 1) My Jap opponent (Paul san) did me a favor by knocking out those old BBs for a long time so I have to rely upon CVs and CAs and 2) he is keeping many shipyard workers gainfully employed along the west coast at such an early stage in the war, helps the economy! Thanks again, Hal

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Post #: 23
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