Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)?

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Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 12:53:55 PM

Altaris

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I'm in the middle of a PBEM game right now, and have been feeling like the Soviets fortifications are too easily brought up to lvl 3 for quiite a few turns now. Now I'm totally convinced of this. Last turn (Turn 19 - so a mud turn) I pushed Soviets out of two hexes, but couldn't move in to occupy them due to ZOC. During Soviet portion of the turn, he moved 3 units back into the hex. When I got my turn back, they had already built Lvl 1 forts!!! Now that's with mud giving a 0.33 multiplier to building, and with only half a turn that it was occupied. Granted, lvl 1 forts get a x3 multiplier, but this still seemed to be excessive. In clear turns, I imagine it's a cake walk to get to lvl 2 forts in 2 turns, and probably lvl 3 in 3-4 turns. I know as an Axis player I can't reach anything close to these types of fortification speeds, so I can only assume the issue lies with engineers/construction crews.

The problem I have is that it's very, very difficult to break through lvl 3 forts at a speed greater than 1-2 hexes a turn, since you really need 2 Corps worth of infantry doing deliberate attacks to clear an adequate opening. I also don't think it's reasonable that the Soviets can build these types of forts so quickly in 1941. I'd say these speeds are similar to what happened historically in 1943 at Kursk... not this early on in the game.

Anyone else experiencing the same types of problems? Any ideas on what would be a good solution or fix to this?

< Message edited by Altaris -- 3/4/2011 12:54:32 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 1:48:14 PM

lazydawg

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You could try adjusting the "Fort Build Level" for the Soviets on the game option screen. According to Section 3.3.3 of the manual:

Fort Build Level: Impacts the speed at which fortification levels are built

(in reply to Altaris)

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 2:00:54 PM

Jajusha

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Really? I had the idea soviet units have quite bad construction values when compared to the germans. Your oponent was probably already building the fort when you first kicked him out, and just completed them the next turn. Also, for construction support units to be able to help building a fort they need to pass an admin leader check, and soviet leadership ain't exactly 5 starts.

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 2:07:14 PM

timmyab

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I've come to the conclusion that they're a bit too much at the moment as well.I don't mind level one in a week, but I think they should then become progressively more difficult to build after that.Perhaps two extra weeks for level two and then three extra weeks for level 3 etc.Conversely I also think they should be more difficult for engineers to dismantle once they're built.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncdawg

You could try adjusting the "Fort Build Level" for the Soviets on the game option screen.� According to Section 3.3.3 of the manual:

Fort Build Level: Impacts the speed at which fortification levels are built

That's a good idea.The only trouble is that it's going to be a difficult job to persuade your opponent that it's a good thing.

(in reply to lazydawg)

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 2:16:32 PM

karonagames

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Entrenchment build rates went up and down like proverbial yo-yos during testing. I think I would quit if I had to test another change!

The problem is that rates that might seem to fast in 1941 are too slow for the Axis in 1943, when they are desperate for any defensive modifier they can lay there hands on. The build rates have to work for the whole war.

_____________________________

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 2:20:17 PM

Altaris

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No, these were hexes where I kicked him out (and thus took possession of hex), but I couldn't move units into the hex due to ZOC issues. It wouldn't have converted back to him until he moved units in, and thus he would be starting at base level 0% fort construction for the hex again.

Soviet units do have crappy construction values, which makes me further suspicious that it's got to be an issue with the construction support units. Since mud modifies fortification build speed by 0.333, this means he's building from lvl 0 to lvl 1 at the same speed that in clear weather would take to go from lvl 1 to 2. This would explain why I ran into a wall of lvl 3 forts everywhere west of Moscow around Turn 13-14, despite the fact that I know from recon and having faced a forward defense around Smolensk just a few turns earlier. I was very surprised to have run into the wall of forts that I did, considering how many units were defending forward in this game.

This really concerns me. Even in 1941, lvl 3 forts are tough for the German to crack. It can be done, but it grinds any advance to a slow crawl and requires infantry support to do it. In particular, panzers just get ravaged trying to attack lvl 3 fortifications, which really pulls the teeth out of a mobile offense.

An astute Soviet player can simply pull back to a good defensive location, have lvl 3 forts pop up in 3-4 turns, then pull back to the next line, rinse, repeat. If timed right, this can completely doom any German drive forward. And I'm fully convinced it can be pulled off well before the Germans reach historical advancements. Only counter I see to this is to drive forward so fast as the German that the Soviet doesn't have time to dig in, but there are limits to have effective this can be.

(in reply to Jajusha)

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 2:43:04 PM

pat.casey

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My highly unscientific "gut feel" is that forts do build up too quickly for all sides. Its reasonably hard to keep a breakthrough going because in 2-3 turns either the germans or the soviets can have a level 2 or 3 fort in every hex.

Seems like there should be more diminishing returns on fortification efforts.

It took the russians months and a major national effort to dig in at Kursk, but in game that level of fortifications seems to go up in a few week.

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 2:54:08 PM

Jajusha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I've come to the conclusion that they're a bit too much at the moment as well.I don't mind level one in a week, but I think they should then become progressively more difficult to build after that....

They do become harder to build, according to the manual, you build the first level at X1 speed, second level the construction value of the units in the hex is only X 0.33 of normal, level 3 is 0.1, level 4 0.02.

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 3:57:46 PM

IdahoNYer

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Build rates for both sides seem high in 1941. I've had German units expend entire movement allowance and next turn...a level 1 fortifcation! If they spent the time moving, when did they have the time to build?? Soviets dig and dig, forts go from level 0 to 3 rather quickly (from a German view of course

.

It would be nice if there could be a modifier during the campaign that reduced fortifications in 1941-42, but not from late 42 onward. This would to me be a realistic way of showing not just the digging in capabilities, but also the increased abilities of both armies to coordinate defensive postions with better integrated fire plans based on lessons learned of the first year plus of war.

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 4:09:56 PM

timmyab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jajusha

quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I've come to the conclusion that they're a bit too much at the moment as well.I don't mind level one in a week, but I think they should then become progressively more difficult to build after that....

They do become harder to build, according to the manual, you build the first level at X1 speed, second level the construction value of the units in the hex is only X 0.33 of normal, level 3 is 0.1, level 4 0.02.

This is incorrect I think.You build the first level at x 3 and the second level at x1.So most 2 stacks can build a level 2 fort in two turns and quite a few single units too.This is before any HQ sapper bonuses are added.

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 4:35:21 PM

JAMiAM

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In my opinion, they do build up too fast, but not particularly for one side or the other. It is a general problem.

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 4:36:24 PM

squatter

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I think part of the problem is that everybody is considered to be building all the time and at the same rate, whether they are refitting, or holding the line. Those divisions you've got refitting outside Moscow are digging just as hard as those divisions you've got in the front line. And on top of this, one unit can leave a heavily entrenched position, and a couple of turns later, someone else can drop in and hey presto the fort is fully functional again.

My suggestion would be to add a forth 'state' for units to adopt along with refit, reserve and ready. This state would be: entrenching.

Under this system, units in refit, reserve, and ready would dig at say 50% of current speed. Units in entrench mode would dig as they do now, only they wouldnt get the benefits of refit mode. This would also prevent the 'put the entire army into refit mode' strategy which it is often sensible for the Sov player to use.

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 4:45:49 PM

timmyab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter
Under this system, units in refit, reserve, and ready would dig at say 50% of current speed. Units in entrench mode would dig as�they do now, only they wouldnt get the benefits of refit mode. This would also prevent the 'put the�entire army into refit mode' strategy�which it is�often sensible for the Sov player to use.�

I think this would be a good idea.I'd also add the proviso that entrenching units should suffer increased levels of fatigue otherwise ready status would become totally obsolete.

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 5:09:26 PM

Jajusha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jajusha

quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I've come to the conclusion that they're a bit too much at the moment as well.I don't mind level one in a week, but I think they should then become progressively more difficult to build after that....

They do become harder to build, according to the manual, you build the first level at X1 speed, second level the construction value of the units in the hex is only X 0.33 of normal, level 3 is 0.1, level 4 0.02.

This is incorrect I think.You build the first level at x 3 and the second level at x1.So most 2 stacks can build a level 2 fort in two turns and quite a few single units too.This is before any HQ sapper bonuses are added.

Scrap that, your right.

< Message edited by Jajusha -- 3/4/2011 5:12:17 PM >

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 5:14:16 PM

Altaris

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Good point on an earlier post about remaining MPs affecting the build speed. Consider that it's mud, and the Soviets had to reoccupy the hex I took (which had to be at least 60% or so of their MP, probably closer to 75%, just to move into an enemy hex in enemy ZOC in mud). So that means he theoretically should have only been using 25-40% of his unit construction values. Multiply that on top of the 0.33 multiplier for mud, and one can see there must be a CRAPLOAD of construction points being applied to build up 1 fort level in a turn. More than enough to easily build up from lvl 1 to 2 forts in one turn during a clear turn.

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 5:15:53 PM

timmyab

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There is no level zero fort.
This is the bit in the manual that you're missing or misinterpreting.
The construction value of a unit is modified based on the
current fort level of the hex.
The crucial word being "current".

Edit - Oh, I see you've got it now.

< Message edited by timmyab -- 3/4/2011 5:19:01 PM >

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 5:22:29 PM

squatter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter
Under this system, units in refit, reserve, and ready would dig at say 50% of current speed. Units in entrench mode would dig as�they do now, only they wouldnt get the benefits of refit mode. This would also prevent the 'put the�entire army into refit mode' strategy�which it is�often sensible for the Sov player to use.�

I think this would be a good idea.I'd also add the proviso that entrenching units should suffer increased levels of fatigue otherwise ready status would become totally obsolete.

Yes, you're right. Actually it would probably be simpler to not add a new mode, but reduce digging rates for refit and reserve modes. A unit in 'training' and reorganisation (refit) cant be digging as furiously as a unit in the line expecting an attack the next day.

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 5:23:47 PM

Rasputitsa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
The problem is that rates that might seem to fast in 1941 are too slow for the Axis in 1943, when they are desperate for any defensive modifier they can lay there hands on. The build rates have to work for the whole war.

I think this problem impacts on several factors in the game, modifiers that work in 1941 are not appropriate for later in the war and vice-versa. Complicated, but could modifiers vary for each side and each period of the war, or recommended setting be given for manual setting ?

(in reply to karonagames)

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 5:33:57 PM

karonagames

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quote:

think this problem impacts on several factors in the game, modifiers that work in 1941 are not appropriate for later in the war and vice-versa. Complicated, but could modifiers vary for each side and each period of the war, or recommended setting be given for manual setting ?

Why would spades become more effective or less effective dependant an the date? Maybe experience levels could be a factor - untrained squaddies don't dig as efficiently as trained squaddies?

I don't see this mechanic being any less self-balancing than many of the other game functions. If the Sovs use diggers in the rear, they can't be in the front lines as well.

I do think empty entrenchments should deteriorate quicker, and I think a minimum construction value should be required to maintain them if they are lvl 3+. I also think that in Mud (and possibly blizzard) they should not increase, and again have a minimum construction level to maintain them or they have a chance to decrease.

_____________________________

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 5:44:02 PM

timmyab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
Maybe experience levels could be a factor - untrained squaddies don't dig as efficiently as trained squaddies?

I think this could work very well, after all fortifying doesn't just represent the digging of trenches but also the way those fortifications are layed out and organized, which would improve with the experience gained over time by the divisions' NCO's and officers.

(in reply to karonagames)

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 6:01:12 PM

Altaris

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I don't have much experience as Soviets, but my best guess is that the forts are going up so quickly due to construction SU's. Perhaps it's too easy to build too many of these early on? I can see the argument for needing forts to go up faster later on (and I largely agree it should get easier later in the war due to techniques improving, etc). Maybe an increase in the AP cost to build construction SU's and/or a stronger limit on how many can be built early on?

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 6:08:57 PM

karonagames

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quote:

I don't have much experience as Soviets, but my best guess is that the forts are going up so quickly due to construction SU's.

I've never really had a problem with this ploy, as the CBs cost APs, and any APs spent on CBs can't be used to move top generals to key sectors of the front. As noted in another thread - Leaders are more important than entrenchments.

_____________________________

It's only a Game

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 6:40:35 PM

Altaris

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All I'm saying is there's something very wrong if the Soviet player can move into a hex and have it built up to lvl 1 forts that turn, during mud, when movement and fortification levels are at their lowest.

Let's take a very generous hypotheticial situation:

1) Let's say that this 3-stack of units has a total of 21 construction points (no idea if this is correct, again don't play Soviets, just ballparking, but I would think that's consistent with what I've seen of '41 Rifle Divs)
2) It's mud, so that 21 gets multiplied by 0.33, that's roughly 7 net points.
3) Multiply this by 3 for it being a lvl 1 fort being constructed, back up to 21.
4) Let's assume he didn't use any of these to attack (I'm pretty sure he did, but can't recall for sure), but instead just moved with these units. It's mud, so even being generous, moving into an enemy hex that's in enemy ZOC should be at least 50%. So that means the net should be, at the very most, 10 points.
5) Now, I'm making the assumption that const. SU's get penalized by a 0.33 multiplier for mud... otherwise, I think that would be a bug. So assuming that offsets the x3 multiplier for lvl 1 forts, that means construction units are contributing, at the very least, 40 points to this one hex alone. That's a huge amount, 4x the amount given by the units themselves!

I don't know, something just feels off. I can definitely say I don't feel as though I was stopped by tactics, or by logistics, but by an insurmountable wall of lvl 3 forts stretching 5-6 hexes deep. And this was in late September, early October 1941. Simply killed any forward momentum, as moving more than 3-4 hexes deep in 1 turn was next to impossible.

Much has been made of Axis players' inexperience. What seems to be left off of this is the same inexperience on the Soviet side. As Soviets learn they can insta-build forts to lvl 3 in 3, maybe 4 turns, I think we'll start seeing uncrackable defenses well short of historical gains in 1941. I keep hearing alot about summer super Germans, but I can tell you they aren't able to knock down lvl 3 forts with any super ease.

< Message edited by Altaris -- 3/4/2011 6:41:40 PM >

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 7:37:29 PM

marty_01

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I recall reading a number of operational studies put together under the auspices of the US Army -- post war -- with the intent of getting a handle on Soviet Combat capabilities. Obviously it was of keen interest on the part of the US Army during the Cold War. Many of these are based upon extensive interviewing process with German soldiers and officers who had fought against the Red Army during WWII. Most of these had been published and republished a number of times over the years and can be found with only a small amount of elbow grease -- ala "Military Aspects of Russian Forests and Swamps" -- "Small unit Tactics on the Eastern Front" etc etc etc...

One of the stronger underlying hard knocks lessons learned by the German Army on the Eastern front was the importance of rapid counterattacks on Soviet Bridgeheads or key terrain features -- hills - defiles -- etc. this being a function of the reported rapidity with which Soviet Infantry was able to dig-in and fortify a position.

But that aside, there are large numbers of combat engineering manuals floating about for those inclined toward such research. The better field manuals typically detail time rates at which trench work, bunker construction, wire entanglement construction, minefield placement, laying field phone wires between fighting positions or between forward observer positions and supporting artillery can be constructed or established.

Forts � in my opinion -- also represent things other than improving a position via earthwork. It also represents the defender developing range cards, surveying the terrain around him and concentrating his combat power along most obvious routes of advance within a given defensive sector. Zeroing artillery or developing concentrations � or whatever the Soviet and/or German equivelent term might be for pre-registration of defensive artillery fires. All of these things are done routinely and rapidly as a matter of course (or should I say a matter of survival).

But in terms of earthwork, having looked at fair bit of this sort of information over the years, my personal opinion is that the current game engines entrenchment rates are fine. I'd actually suggest that if anything, the entrenchment rates are perhaps too slow and too variable for forts of say class-1 or class-2. But as I say there isn't really a reason to do a huge amount of guess work on the subject as there are already excellent engineering field manuals from both World War 1 and World War 2 that provide pretty solid time rates for excavation work -- wire entanglement work -- bunker construction -- minefield placement -- etc etc etc.

It "feels" wrong should actually be substituted with: "these are entrenchment rates from the following source\sources". Based upon this research and this information my conclusion is that in-game rates of entrenchment are: A) "too slow" B) "just right" or C) "too fast". At least that's my opinion on how a person would approach this sort of question. Research -- than present the facts and the sources, than let the designers mull over the information and make their own decision on the subject.

< Message edited by marty_01 -- 3/4/2011 8:02:37 PM >

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 7:46:57 PM

alfonso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Altaris

All I'm saying is there's something very wrong if the Soviet player can move into a hex and have it built up to lvl 1 forts that turn, during mud, when movement and fortification levels are at their lowest.

Let's take a very generous hypotheticial situation:

1) Let's say that this 3-stack of units has a total of 21 construction points (no idea if this is correct, again don't play Soviets, just ballparking, but I would think that's consistent with what I've seen of '41 Rifle Divs)

A "normal" rifle division in 1941 displays a "construction points" value of around 20-30. I don't know it this is the value you are using in your calculations, but it seems as if a stack of 3 units could have around 70-80 of those points.

(in reply to Altaris)

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 8:24:09 PM

Altaris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Altaris

All I'm saying is there's something very wrong if the Soviet player can move into a hex and have it built up to lvl 1 forts that turn, during mud, when movement and fortification levels are at their lowest.

Let's take a very generous hypotheticial situation:

1) Let's say that this 3-stack of units has a total of 21 construction points (no idea if this is correct, again don't play Soviets, just ballparking, but I would think that's consistent with what I've seen of '41 Rifle Divs)

A "normal" rifle division in 1941 displays a "construction points" value of around 20-30. I don't know it this is the value you are using in your calculations, but it seems as if a stack of 3 units could have around 70-80 of those points.

Well, that would help explain it. That also seems way too much, considering that it only takes about 16 points to get to lvl 1 forts, 50 to get lvl 2, 150 to get to lvl 3. That means that even without assistance of SU's, the construction value is more than enough to entrench to lvl 3 in about 4 turns, if there's 3 rifle divs stacked in a hex.

I just don't see how the Axis are going to reasonably advance once the Soviet players get the knack for super-building forts. BTW, that's the counter for "German supermen" in summer. Once those forts get to lvl 3, it's much more an even playing field.

(in reply to alfonso)

Post #: 26

RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 9:04:25 PM

alfonso

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Altaris,

however, I don't know if the value reflected in the unit information display is subsequently modified by fatigue and experience, or it is already "corrected" by those factors. In any case, for comparison purposes, a construction brigade has about 40 construction points. But yes, 3 Rifle Divisions have a nice potential to dig, you are right in that point. In the other side, you can consider that, with so many hexes to defend, it might not be as usual as you imagine to place 3 Divisions in the same hex.

You have also to take into account that the civil population helps in the digging works (perhaps that is what you saw), but only at full capacity when there are enemies around, well, there are a lot of factors at work. And if the enemy is more than 25 hexes away, forts higher than 2 cannot be built. So if it takes months to upgrade to 3 and then to 4, then it could perfectly be that there is not enough time to fully fortify...

(in reply to Altaris)

Post #: 27

RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 10:19:53 PM

Rasputitsa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

quote:

think this problem impacts on several factors in the game, modifiers that work in 1941 are not appropriate for later in the war and vice-versa. Complicated, but could modifiers vary for each side and each period of the war, or recommended setting be given for manual setting ?

Why would spades become more effective or less effective dependant an the date? Maybe experience levels could be a factor - untrained squaddies don't dig as efficiently as trained squaddies?

I don't see this mechanic being any less self-balancing than many of the other game functions. If the Sovs use diggers in the rear, they can't be in the front lines as well.

I do think empty entrenchments should deteriorate quicker, and I think a minimum construction value should be required to maintain them if they are lvl 3+. I also think that in Mud (and possibly blizzard) they should not increase, and again have a minimum construction level to maintain them or they have a chance to decrease.

Preparing fortifications is principally about, organisation, transport, materials, communication systems , etc., no use digging unless there is a plan behind it, if it were only spades I would agree, but higher levels of fortification need a lot more than spades.

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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 10:44:46 PM

Altaris

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Just as follow up, got the next turn back, and indeed forts had gone up to lvl 2 from lvl 1 in just 1 turn.

This is around Vyzama, so I think it's out of range of any major urban area lending aid, I'd have to check the rules again on that.

This confirms that it's quite possible with 3 divisions in a hex to go from lvl 2 to lvl 3 in one turn (since the 0.33 mud multiplier basically makes lvl 1 -> 2 the same as 2 -> 3 in clear weather).

I'm majorly, majorly disappointed in this. Mud is the absolute worst time to build forts by modifiers, and yet here they've gone up to lvl 2 in just 2 turns. This would confirm, IMO, that the construction rates are way too fast. With a really solid build plan, Soviets are going to wreck complete havoc on German players with some experience behind them.

(in reply to Rasputitsa)

Post #: 29

RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/4/2011 11:05:49 PM

Zort

Posts: 684
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Status: offline

As I get ready for my summer offensive in 42 against my human opponent I noticed that he has units 3 or 4 deep across the entire line. I am suspecting that these guys are all digging in. When I inspect the 42 GC I don't see that the russians really did that. Then I look at the game scale, 10 miles per hex and I think there is an issue with unit size and hex size when it comes to building fortifications. I have a recommended tempering of fort building (not to include speed).

1. Brigades/regts not be allowed to build fortifications. They are just too small a unit to build 10 miles of fortifications and don't have the assets to do so.
2. Divs/ Sov corps: can only build to level 2 forts without attaching eng/construction SUs.
3. Divs/ Sov corps: with attached eng/const SUs can build lvl 3 forts.
4. Level 4 forts can only be built within 2 hexes of a city/urban hex by divs/corps.

I think this might mitigate some of the summer of 42 multi hex lvl 3-4 forts. I know the game mechanics allow this but when you think of 10 miles of fortification per hex 3 or 4 hexes deep for 120+ hexes that is a staggering amount. Not sure what everyone else thinks but something like this and/or lengthening the time to build them outside the area of a city/urban area would help.

(in reply to Altaris)

Post #: 30