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A Question on Basements - 10/22/2002 9:29:33 AM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		I was driving home today thinking about SPWAW while I was on the Innerstate. I started to think about how devistating it is for infantry to be in buildings and having a tank drive into the building and knock it down. Now in the current version of SPWAW this is fairly easy to do without much damage to your AFV. Which I thought was a little unrealistic since you can do this with a halftrack also. This train of thought got me onto the idea that that tacktic would never work in New England USA because the vast majority of houses have Basements. And if a tank drove into the house it would crash down into the basement and then the house would fall down on top of it. Effectively destroying it.

Now I am not saying that the tank would be destroyed but it would be stuck and the crew, with a house on top of the tank, would not be able to get out. This raised a question in my mind. Do the vast majority of houses in Europe and Russian not have basements.

If the answer is that the vast majority do have basements than wouldn't you think that your tank would become immobilized more often than not in SPWAW.

Just some thinking I was doing while stuck in traffic.:D

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- 10/22/2002 9:45:59 AM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		Actually sounds like a plausable tank-assault position, now that you mention it.

(I usually daydream about having a Panzer when I'm stuck in traffic. ;))

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Post #: 2
- 10/22/2002 9:56:00 AM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		From my experience it appears the odds for immobilization have flip-flopped. Under the old system you could almost guarantee your vehicle wasn't driving out of the building it crashed into, now you have a better chance of suffering a breakdown in a rough terrain hex. And I think this is a bug: the German schwimmwagen not only can drive thru any structure, but it only uses 2 movement points to do it! I tested it out and was able to successfully flatten 20+ stone buildings with one in a single turn...and they only cost 3 points too. I know they were made by Volkswagen, and that the old Beetles were tough, but this is stretching it a bit. ;) :D

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Post #: 3
- 10/22/2002 10:31:50 AM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		And yet the 'dozer M4's don't seem to fare much better than a regular ones (or maybe it's just me?)! :mad: :mad:

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Post #: 4
Re: A Question on Basements - 10/22/2002 5:19:55 PM   
gnoccop

 

Posts: 162
Joined: 7/26/2001
From: Cento, Italy
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gary Tatro
[B]...
This raised a question in my mind. Do the vast majority of houses in Europe and Russian not have basements.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't know in russia and in eastern europe, but in Italy (and I think in western europe too) the majority of rural and urban house are made of brick and concrete (and this is also true for houses of the '40's).

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Post #: 5
- 10/22/2002 6:31:37 PM   
Jacc

 

Posts: 265
Joined: 4/30/2001
From: Viikki Imperium
Status: offline 		I think that during World War 2 most countryside houses were built of wood. In the cities most building were, however, of concrete, steel and stone. I think that the old v4.5 system, where crashing ANY house caused almost always (99,9%) immobilization, was a bit rude - try ram a Königstiger through a wooden outhouse, and see which one stands still. In v7.1 you can drive almost any vehicle through a house (even a rock house, for Christ's sake) and the results are extremely accurate: house collapses, and the Ba-10 emerges unscratched. Neither of these models is realistic or fun.

Porblem :p seems to be the building models - they are, after all, just one basic element. There is no difference between small playhouses and multi-hex buildings, except their toughness. Some type of a compromise should be found - I have always found the urban warfare in SPWAW it's weakest link. :(

Yeah, and many, though not all, houses in Europe and Russia do have basements, floors under ground etc. - so ramming a tank through a building should not cause those 50-100% casualties which are more a rule than an occasion.

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Post #: 6
- 10/22/2002 7:30:38 PM   
gnoccop

 

Posts: 162
Joined: 7/26/2001
From: Cento, Italy
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jacc
[B]I think that during World War 2 most countryside houses were built of wood. In the cities most building were, however, of concrete, steel and stone. ... [/B][/QUOTE]

I can speak for sure about Italy; but I can assure that the majority of countryside house are made of stone.
There are also a lot of open barns made of brick. But they are open, without walls, only columns and roof.
I don't know, indeed, the strenght of the basement of country buildings; I can tell that a lot of this country house have 2 floor (ground level and first floor) so I think that there are basement.

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Post #: 7
- 10/23/2002 11:42:59 PM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Well, after watching a bulldozer demolish the building next to my store, I think the old immobilization rules were more accurate. He had to slowly take the machine into the building, a bit at a time, at the same time using the raised blade to 'grab' at higher level rubbish to bring down ahead of him. There was constantly objects falling to the sides, getting into the drive wheels, I think peoples notions of tanks entering buildings are waaaay overinflated!! Most of the cases I ever saw in books, or heard of this tactic, the building was A) already demolished enough to gain sufficient access, or B) troops laboriously cleared an entry area for the vehicle/gun to sit in an ambush mode. Only a complete moron would purposely drive a tank into a building, chancing damage to the drivetrain which could require repairing the tracks, or worse, removing damaged sprockets and replacing them, possibly under fire, then theres also tearing off the antennae, trashing a protruding machine gun barrel, numerous other things!!! No way, I wish the old rules were enacted again, simple solution, don't enter the buildings with vehicles, DUH!!

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Post #: 8
- 10/24/2002 12:46:06 AM   
Svennemir

 

Posts: 542
Joined: 11/2/2001
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Well... while the old rules might have been better with regards to buildings, they sure were a pestilence. The problem is, what happened when driving through hedgerows? Instant immobilization IIRC. And the small stone dykes were just as bad.

The best simple solution as I see it:

Stone buildings are considered to have a cellar and/or be sufficiently tough to halt the AFV. Immobilization.
Wooden buildings are considered not to have a cellar. No immobilization.
Hedges and stuff are not considered to have a cellar either.

Unfortunately, as we all know, we will never see the problems solved in SPWAW since no new versions will be.

Also the movement cost of entering buildings should be much bigger, so you won't accidentally crash into buildings just because it's the "fastest" way.

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Post #: 9
- 10/24/2002 2:28:34 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		On buildings; In central (Germany, Austria, Poland, former Chechoslovakia and Hungary), western and southern Europe, houses are predominantly built of stone. Eastern Europe and Russia would find most houses made of wood, as it is plentiful around, as well as the houses up here in Scandinavia. Don't think log-house structure, but a wooden framework with wood panels, as well as brick structures.

On basements; Don't know about continental Europe, but up here around WWII, only post-WWI houses would have a basement, except for very rare older (and luxurious) buildings. Digging and blasting is an expensive business, better to put up a solid ground to build the house on. :p

This goes for rural buildings, in the cities, all buildings will have basements. (whereelse did they put the coal for the furnaces?!) However, I figure it will take balls the size of a battleship to drive a tank into an 8-story stone building. *krunch*

Now, even if there's a basement, building floors are not exactly fragile. If there's enough supports in the basements (walls, pillars), there's a good chance it can take the tank. Or at least a HT. A Tiger will exert some 10 tons/m² of pressure IIRC, and that will be a bit too much for just about any surface. *krunch* :p

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Post #: 10
Thanks Guys - 10/24/2002 2:58:24 AM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		I thought that I was thinking the right way. I was not sure but thought that it would be a little dangerous to just drive your tank smack into a building.

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Post #: 11
Weeeeeeeeee - 10/24/2002 12:47:09 PM   
Hvy

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 10/16/2002
From: F.W.B,Flordia, usa
Status: offline 		Will this is a little off subject,but what about inf going into upper levels of buildings an shooting at top armor on tanks also didnt the Russians move through the sewers in some of the citys or you could wire buildings to collapase on tanks as they drive down the road dont know if that was ever done,also i would think infantry would just about be invisible to tanks in a city setting is that modeled well in this game??

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Post #: 12
Re: Weeeeeeeeee - 10/28/2002 10:00:52 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hvy
[B]Will this is a little off subject,but what about inf going into upper levels of buildings an shooting at top armor on tanks also didnt the Russians move through the sewers in some of the citys or you could wire buildings to collapase on tanks as they drive down the road dont know if that was ever done,also i would think infantry would just about be invisible to tanks in a city setting is that modeled well in this game?? [/B][/QUOTE]


From my experience urban combat in SPWAW is a little bit too easy concerning infantry unit protection and concealment. In my scenario designs I usually layer "Stone building", "Rough" and "Entenchment" attributes (in Freds Editor) into a single hex which makes infantry in these hexes considerably tougher!:) Feels just right to me this way.

Gnenerally in central europe most buildings, no matter if city/village or farmland, were solidly made of stone/brick and should be more than dangerous terrain for tanks! Scenario designers could place AT obstacles into building hexes to prevent the player or AIP driving into them!
Off course there were various types of stone buildings. Some were really "impossible" (multi story city buildings f.e), while others could easily be crushed without too much dabger to tanks. In fact I read repeatedly that this also was used as a tactic: Smash a particular building with a heavy tank (Churchill, KV..ect.) to bury its occupants!:D
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Post #: 13
- 10/28/2002 10:48:58 PM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		Since I usually play PBEM games I brought up the Schwimmwagen 'anomaly' for a different reason. I figured if it was mentioned here an opponent wouldn't try the following: spot 2 units of engineers in a building, suppress them, collapse the structure with a 3-point schwimmwagen (wiping out both squads) and say 'wow, I didn't know that would happen!'. ;)

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Post #: 14
Uh-huh - 10/29/2002 12:35:53 AM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by tracer
[B]Since I usually play PBEM games I brought up the Schwimmwagen 'anomaly' for a different reason. I figured if it was mentioned here an opponent wouldn't try the following: spot 2 units of engineers in a building, suppress them, collapse the structure with a 3-point schwimmwagen (wiping out both squads) and say 'wow, I didn't know that would happen!'. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

CHEESE--:D

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