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Becoming a wargame developer? - 4/19/2012 3:36:50 PM   
Perturabo


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Status: offline 		I'm studying computer science and I'm interested in becoming a wargame developer. How does one start? Also, is it possible to live from it/how does one combine being a wargame developer with having a dayjob?

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 4/19/2012 5:01:27 PM   
doomtrader


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Status: offline 		I was waiting for this kind of post from you.

< Message edited by doomtrader -- 4/19/2012 5:17:16 PM >

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 4/19/2012 6:03:38 PM   
IainMcNeil


Posts: 2804
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Status: offline 		I would just start making something - make some demos or small wargames and then see where it leads. If you find a nugget of good gameplay the UI and art can be bolted on later with the help of a publisher... like us ;)

Your first efforts will probably not work out but each project will teach you a lot. It is definitely possible to make a living but getting a revenue stream started is the tricky part as games take time to develop so you need to fund yourself through the early stages until first release and you get some revenue. If your first commercial release is good enough you should be able to fund your next game from the proceeds and then when this releases you have the new revenue stream and the back catalogue sales too so it should slowly build up.

What we are finding is that people are getting more choosey. More people are buying but there is so much choice that the best games sell more and 2nd tier games sell less. They may still be good, but just not good enough to offer something unique that you cant get from another game or is not done better elsewhere. You need to make sure you are the best at something so that you stand out in your particular niche.

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 4/19/2012 9:25:57 PM   
Jeffrey H.


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Status: offline 		You might try and get your feet wet by joining a beta test team. For me, the experience was not so good because all I did was playtest things I wasn't interested in, but some people use that role to launch their own independant games. Hardcore modding is also something I consider to be a step in the right direction.



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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 4/19/2012 10:25:01 PM   
Lützow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I'm studying computer science and I'm interested in becoming a wargame developer. How does one start? Also, is it possible to live from it/how does one combine being a wargame developer with having a dayjob?


By making it to your day job.

There is no real silver bullet about becoming a game developer. You could, for example, start by writing mods and hoping to get hired, or applying as a junior dev after finishing your studies. In the end it's rather about your skills as where you come from. That being said, be aware that working for the gaming industry demands plenty of overtime, close deadlines and often creates little revenue in return.



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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 4/20/2012 1:06:35 AM   
doomtrader


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Status: offline 		So true Lützow, but there is nothing better when people are writing words like: "great game"

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 4/20/2012 1:38:22 AM   
junk2drive


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Status: offline 		You could also volunteer for an open source freeware game to gain some experience, be tutored by those that already know and have something to show for your work. Here is a website that lists Linux native games. A lot of them are free.

http://www.lgdb.org/

The downside is that most devs seem to be using Microsoft .Net and XNA tools with DirectX graphics. Unity seems to be a good game making program. Ghostryder at wargamer forums is the guy to ask.

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 4/20/2012 11:04:41 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
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From: England
Status: offline 		Modding is a good way in.

I have some game ideas just not the skill to develop them sadly. Is there such a thing as a game idea man?

It is something I've thought about what with the boom of indy developers, however like everything else it's down to things that are out of your hands whether you get successful. You need a good game, and be in the right place at the right time and a big dollop of luck. Like Notch and the others who have made a small fortune of an indy game, yet there are thousands others who never make a penny.

Kickstarter is a good idea once you have the skills and idea down, however check out how many projects never get any funding at all...loads. Make a Steel Panther kind of game and show your capable of pulling it off you may make a prety penny.

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 4/20/2012 2:30:25 PM   
Josh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


It is something I've thought about what with the boom of indy developers, however like everything else it's down to things that are out of your hands whether you get successful. You need a good game, and be in the right place at the right time and a big dollop of luck. Like Notch and the others who have made a small fortune of an indy game, yet there are thousands others who never make a penny.

Kickstarter is a good idea once you have the skills and idea down, however check out how many projects never get any funding at all...loads. Make a Steel Panther kind of game and show your capable of pulling it off you may make a prety penny.


Well exactly. I find the business tough, many studios have come and gone, loads and loads of skilled folks have been hired... and sacked again. I've seen great game developers create great games, only to fail on the next ones until they fade away into anonimity. I've seen great games of outstanding quality never getting the audience it earned, only to end up in the salesbin.
So yeah, throughout the years the business has somewhat left me with a bitter taste in my mouth, it can be cruel.

Still, having said that, I'm glad with the indie boom, some serious nice games out there, and it doesn't even cost you an arm and a limb to buy.
Sometimes I compare it with the modelling industry (adult and fashion), where all too many girls think a pretty face and cute ass guarantees big money. Well think again. So yeah you have to have something that's different, or the "golden nugget" as Iain says.
And folks tend to be choosey indeed. There's *way* more choice than 10-15 years ago. When the original Panzer General was released there was nothing even similar on the market, it was an instant hit.
Take for instance the work that Jason Petho or Shannon O'keets have been doing for their games.... years and years of commitment and hard laobr, will it pay off?
I hope so.

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 4/28/2012 12:13:30 AM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

By making it to your day job.

I guess you're right. I'm just experiencing having a day job. 2 hours of walking to/from it and 6 hours of working - almost no time for any organized work outside it. Actually, I don't even have time for studying.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

There is no real silver bullet about becoming a game developer. You could, for example, start by writing mods and hoping to get hired, or applying as a junior dev after finishing your studies. In the end it's rather about your skills as where you come from. That being said, be aware that working for the gaming industry demands plenty of overtime, close deadlines and often creates little revenue in return.

I have started writing mods 10 years ago.

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 4/28/2012 3:51:26 AM   
Missouri_Rebel


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Status: offline 		First things first. Get yourself a car.

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 4/28/2012 5:14:25 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17785
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From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		Perturabo,

I'll repeat the advice Roger Keating of SSG gave me when I asked the same question back in 1983 and that was "don't give up your day job". I know this is not what you want to hear but it is still the best advice going. Take it from someone who ignored that advice thirty years ago, developed games which have received the highest praise but lost his house on a game development risk too many.

Having said that it is possible to develop wargames fulltime provided you don't mind being poor, don't have a wife or have one who is very tolerant and don't have kids. The frank truth of the matter is that even when you are at the top of the game designing excellent product the product we have to sell is for an extremely niche market. Everyone like to think they belong to the majority but rest assured that wargamers are on the outer fringe. We are a weird lot and there is not many of us. So sales can be measured in a few thousand not tens of thousands and certainly not in the millions like AAA titles that you will be competing against for your customers dollars.

In short it's a mug game. Only jump in if satisfying your creative urge is greater than your material aspirations.

If you ignore all that I have said and take the plunge then I recommend strongly that you don't take that plunge on your own. Team up with someone else. Risk, burdens and wargame development are all best shared.

Good luck!

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 4/29/2012 10:29:55 PM   
Lützow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I have started writing mods 10 years ago.


Then you might have some basic qualifications already and should get in contact with gaming studios around your place. Myself, I also came from a different department before changing to ITK, and I didn't regret it.


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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 4/29/2012 11:46:24 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Perturabo,

I'll repeat the advice Roger Keating of SSG gave me when I asked the same question back in 1983 and that was "don't give up your day job". I know this is not what you want to hear but it is still the best advice going. Take it from someone who ignored that advice thirty years ago, developed games which have received the highest praise but lost his house on a game development risk too many.

Having said that it is possible to develop wargames fulltime provided you don't mind being poor, don't have a wife or have one who is very tolerant and don't have kids. The frank truth of the matter is that even when you are at the top of the game designing excellent product the product we have to sell is for an extremely niche market. Everyone like to think they belong to the majority but rest assured that wargamers are on the outer fringe. We are a weird lot and there is not many of us. So sales can be measured in a few thousand not tens of thousands and certainly not in the millions like AAA titles that you will be competing against for your customers dollars.

In short it's a mug game. Only jump in if satisfying your creative urge is greater than your material aspirations.

If you ignore all that I have said and take the plunge then I recommend strongly that you don't take that plunge on your own. Team up with someone else. Risk, burdens and wargame development are all best shared.

Good luck!



Great advice, I did chuckle to myself once when reading the BFTB forum, someone said "lets say the sell 10,000 units"..I did think yeah right.

There are certain wargames that will appeal to a bigger audience if you go for either Sci Fi or Fantasy. If you make historical wargames and have a success with one, I bet it will still sell less than an average reviewed sci fi or fantasy game grand strategy game. For instance Elemental was a totla flop and disaster, yet I bet it sold alot more than whats considered an amazing wargame Command Ops BFTB.

I'm currently looking into a good programme to design the combat element of the Grand Fantasy game I mentioned in another thread. I feel I'm onto something, enough that I feel it's worth putting effort into.

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 4/30/2012 8:27:09 PM   
mavraamides


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I'm studying computer science and I'm interested in becoming a wargame developer. How does one start? Also, is it possible to live from it/how does one combine being a wargame developer with having a dayjob?


It really depends what kind of game you want to develop. There's a world of difference between an RTS or a turn based grand strategy game or a 3D FPS. I would say the easiest type for a solo developer would be turn based as the others are often 80% art and 20% code.

I'm working on a grand strategy game myself. I have a full time job and so I peck away at it at home on my laptop in my spare time. I got tired of complaining about other peoples games or trying to get them to make the game I wanted so I decided to make it myself and then hope others will buy it. That way, I can't lose because even if no one else likes it, I'll still play it.

If you are going the 3D route, there are tons of development environments like Unity or Unreal but you better be good at 3D art because you will be competing against professional artists.

If you are going turn based strategy, you'll need a C++ compiler (Visual Studio Express is free and quite awesome) and a good graphics or game library.

Its a VERY steep learning curve. I've been programming professionally for over 25 years and nothing in my professional life could completely prepare me for writing a war game. Especially the AI.

But if its something you want to do, you should go for it. You will learn so much and it will help you in your career as well. If you do get lucky enough to make it a full time profession, all the hard work you put in will be more than justified.

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 5/1/2012 12:40:03 AM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		GordianKnot, your game is looking superb. Is there an overall description of it's features and game mechanics, I love the amount of details and info each unit has.

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 5/1/2012 1:36:21 AM   
Fred98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

There are certain wargames that will appeal to a bigger audience if you go for either Sci Fi / Fantasy. If you make historical wargames and have a success with one,




How about 1 game engine with 2 sets of artwork. Then package and sell them as 2 separate games.

There is the wargaming artwork and Sci Fi artwork.

Wargamers see Panther tanks firing a 75mm gun and the Sci Fi fans see a Klingon medium battle wagon firing a level 75 laser.

Patches usually cover the game engine and not the artwork.
.

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 5/1/2012 8:29:18 AM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Joe good idea, that sort of reminds me of somekind of wargame construction kit.

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 5/1/2012 10:22:17 AM   
doomtrader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

There are certain wargames that will appeal to a bigger audience if you go for either Sci Fi / Fantasy. If you make historical wargames and have a success with one,




How about 1 game engine with 2 sets of artwork. Then package and sell them as 2 separate games.

There is the wargaming artwork and Sci Fi artwork.

Wargamers see Panther tanks firing a 75mm gun and the Sci Fi fans see a Klingon medium battle wagon firing a level 75 laser.

Patches usually cover the game engine and not the artwork.
.



Usually there is some sort of naming, data, etc

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 5/2/2012 4:47:29 PM   
mavraamides


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

GordianKnot, your game is looking superb. Is there an overall description of it's features and game mechanics, I love the amount of details and info each unit has.


Thanks! I started working on a site using Google's Site Maker so I wouldn't have to pay for hosting but it was so hard to get their stuff to look right that I gave up as it was taking away from dev time. I plan on making a post on my blog with a feature list (ever changing of course) probably in the next week. I also am about 20% done with the manual which I'm kind of writing as I go but it won't be ready to post for a long time.

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 5/2/2012 5:21:23 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		GordianKnot, have you proposed this to Matrix? I'm sure they will be willing to chat to you about it and publishing etc. It sure does look professional and something they'd be interested in.

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 5/3/2012 9:29:59 AM   
IainMcNeil


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Status: offline 		We're always interested in talking to new developers so definitely feel free to contact us :)

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 5/6/2012 12:31:19 AM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Perturabo,

I'll repeat the advice Roger Keating of SSG gave me when I asked the same question back in 1983 and that was "don't give up your day job". I know this is not what you want to hear but it is still the best advice going. Take it from someone who ignored that advice thirty years ago, developed games which have received the highest praise but lost his house on a game development risk too many.

Is it possible to make games that receive the highest praise while still having a dayjob or does one have to choose between these two?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Having said that it is possible to develop wargames fulltime provided you don't mind being poor, don't have a wife or have one who is very tolerant and don't have kids. The frank truth of the matter is that even when you are at the top of the game designing excellent product the product we have to sell is for an extremely niche market. Everyone like to think they belong to the majority but rest assured that wargamers are on the outer fringe. We are a weird lot and there is not many of us. So sales can be measured in a few thousand not tens of thousands and certainly not in the millions like AAA titles that you will be competing against for your customers dollars.

In short it's a mug game. Only jump in if satisfying your creative urge is greater than your material aspirations.

My material aspirations are paying the bills, having full stomach without having to resort to junkfood and buying some game/book/comic/manga/music from time to time. Oh and replacing clothes when they start to fall apart. I don't know if it counts as "being poor" and thus being able to jump in or as "satisfying material aspirations" and having to bear a dayjob.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

If you ignore all that I have said and take the plunge then I recommend strongly that you don't take that plunge on your own. Team up with someone else. Risk, burdens and wargame development are all best shared.

What kind of people are most useful for teaming up with?

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 5/6/2012 1:52:32 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Team up with someone who has talent and also has the same love of the same games so you can fire ideas off. Also someone dedicated.

Will be hard to find though. I'd love to meet a programmer who say loved my game design ideas...it isn't going to happen though!

So it boils down to learning one self, which I suppose your looking at a good few years before you get competent enough to start making a game.

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 5/6/2012 9:41:59 AM   
doomtrader


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From: Poland
Status: offline 		wodin, actually the programmers don't have to love wargames. Just find one who would be willing to wait for his share until the game release.
There is a lot of them so sooner or later you will find somebody.

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RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 5/6/2012 11:37:46 PM   
waverick


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quote:


ORIGINAL: GordianKnot

Its a VERY steep learning curve. I've been programming professionally for over 25 years and nothing in my professional life could completely prepare me for writing a war game. Especially the AI.

But if its something you want to do, you should go for it. You will learn so much and it will help you in your career as well. If you do get lucky enough to make it a full time profession, all the hard work you put in will be more than justified.



Well, I'm in the same boot I guess. Beside my fulltime job I am programming a wargame (Operational/WEGO), the same experience, AI is very hard to write. Came to the conclusion that it was necessary to have in-game live AI-debugging, which of course takes again a lot of time. Last year I decided I just want to release a(!) game, and programmed a simple casual game just to get the feeling "what comes after the programming"....man(!) this part is even more difficult.
My casual action puzzle game is part of the gaming world where every day new games are launched. Trying to get noticed is nearly impossible.
But is was a learnfull experience also the part of putting together a release, building a online highscore server.

Anyways in the game programming world there is no easy way......

http://fruitonrails.3qc.nl

Currently I am back on programming my big wargame.....



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Post #: 26
RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 5/7/2012 12:30:24 AM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		I'm wondering if it wouldn't be good to start out with making a paper wargame. After all I need to design all the rules anyway.
Maybe making a solo wargame and then making a computer port as a first "non-exercise" project.

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Post #: 27
RE: Becoming a wargame developer? - 5/7/2012 1:32:42 AM   
Arjuna


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From: Canberra, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Is it possible to make games that receive the highest praise while still having a dayjob or does one have to choose between these two?

Professionalism doesn't mean "full time". It's an attitude and a practice that pays attention to detail, that sticks at something long aftyer the initial enthusiasm has waned. So yes you can.

quote:


What kind of people are most useful for teaming up with?

That all depends on your own skill set. Work up a list of the skills you reckon are needed. Cross off the one's you think you can handle and then find someone or some others that meet the rest. But apart from that you need someone you get on with. Someone that you can be completely open to in regard to your design. Someone who understands the nature of the risks involved and whose prepared to wear the consequences should things not turn out the way you think. It will be these non-skill type attributes that really count the most.

So what skills do you bring to the table? What are you capable of? What would you like to focus on? What's left?

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