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Maintaining Minefields - 6/29/2013 4:01:54 PM   
kbfchicago


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/17/2009
From: NC, USA
Status: offline 		So...I've got more than one minefield that is decaying despite having ACMs (one for every 150 mines). ACM(s)are at the port, not in a TF, not damaged. Am not seeing enemy traffic or combat reports so I don't think he's clearing them (either by sweeping or "finding" them ). What am I missing...?

Kevin
Post #: 1
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/29/2013 4:07:46 PM   
Quixote


Posts: 773
Joined: 8/14/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		The ACMs need at least some fuel in port to work. Keeps things interesting at really small forward bases...

(in reply to kbfchicago)
Post #: 2
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/29/2013 4:10:39 PM   
kbfchicago


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/17/2009
From: NC, USA
Status: offline 		Had not thought of that...I'll double check on the fuel situation when I get a turn back tonight.

(in reply to Quixote)
Post #: 3
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/29/2013 5:29:13 PM   
greg_slith


Posts: 490
Joined: 9/14/2004
Status: offline 		I didn't think it mattered. I thought the minefield would decay no matter what. The ACM's just slowed the decay.

(in reply to kbfchicago)
Post #: 4
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/29/2013 5:32:10 PM   
Nami Koshino


Posts: 100
Joined: 4/22/2006
From: Salem, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

I didn't think it mattered. I thought the minefield would decay no matter what. The ACM's just slowed the decay.


Each ACM properly fueled and not badly damaged can maintain up to 150 mines in the port it is disbanded in. Any above that will decay.

(in reply to greg_slith)
Post #: 5
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/29/2013 5:45:28 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I'm trying to learn the Japanese side. I'm amazed at how many mines are at Port Arthur, and with no ACMs present. What a waste! They are certain to be gone long before the Allies take any interest in the place.

(in reply to Nami Koshino)
Post #: 6
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/29/2013 5:54:20 PM   
Quixote


Posts: 773
Joined: 8/14/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

I'm trying to learn the Japanese side. I'm amazed at how many mines are at Port Arthur, and with no ACMs present. What a waste! They are certain to be gone long before the Allies take any interest in the place.


There are several Japanese bases like this on December 7th. In the first couple of turns as Japan, just make sure to send ACMs to the ports that need them. You'll lose a few mines to field degradation in the first week or so of play, but you can still preserve 95% or better of your starting mines this way.

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 7
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/29/2013 5:59:47 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Not sure yet, but I don't think I want to waste ACMs in Port Arthur in 41/42. Even in Shanghai, I think 50 mines is enough to keep enemy subs out, after they find one or two.

(in reply to Quixote)
Post #: 8
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/29/2013 6:07:28 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Also some of the smallest xAKL(170 cap ones) can be converted into ACM. Since their Cap is limited any how its worth considering making some of them into other things like ACMs.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 6/29/2013 6:08:31 PM >

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 9
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/29/2013 10:26:46 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		The allies are in the same position of having a LOT of mines in places that have no ACMs. It seems so strange to start off that way.... Did mines only start to decay after December 7th 1941???? Ok, realism is not a factor, but it does seem odd as to how the Dutch and Brits maintained fields without some sort of craft for maintenance. But I don't remember seeing any in either the Dutch of UK force structure.

_____________________________


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Post #: 10
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/30/2013 4:20:32 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Well, as you know, the game portrays "special" mines. The Brits simply have "extra special mines" and you need to get over it.

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 11
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/30/2013 1:23:21 PM   
Skyros


Posts: 1570
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline 		I believe mine fields at start are determined by the size of the port. It was discussed a few years back as a work around in the code.

Found this in a search, see post 23

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2182052&mpage=1&key=Minefield%2Cstart


< Message edited by Skyros -- 6/30/2013 1:44:30 PM >

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 12
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/30/2013 2:04:07 PM   
Skyros


Posts: 1570
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline 		See post 19

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2320596&mpage=1&key=Minefield%2Cstart�

(in reply to Skyros)
Post #: 13
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/30/2013 3:17:42 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		Skyros, just in case you don't know - if you click on the "Post #: xy" button in the lower right corner of each post, it will give you the direct link to this particular post > allows copy&paste into other threads right "on target" .

post 23: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2182724

post 19: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2577288

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 6/30/2013 3:19:29 PM >

_____________________________

AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

(in reply to Skyros)
Post #: 14
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/30/2013 3:29:47 PM   
czert2

 

Posts: 508
Joined: 2/10/2013
Status: offline 		but i thing tha new mines are generated , they just draw supplies form base/port to create them. Or they are permanently lost ? If they are permanetly lost i will love added buton to create new mines.

(in reply to Skyros)
Post #: 15
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/30/2013 4:53:04 PM   
kbfchicago


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/17/2009
From: NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Quixote

The ACMs need at least some fuel in port to work. Keeps things interesting at really small forward bases...


Thank you (Don) Quixote! You were right on the mark as usual. I had not been paying attention to fuel and looked through some old turns, confirming fuel was gone when I saw decay. Interesting "gottha" that the ACMs do indeed burn fuel while not in a TF and servicing mines. Makes perfect sense in retrospect but I did not account for that...

(in reply to Quixote)
Post #: 16
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 6/30/2013 10:21:06 PM   
Skyros


Posts: 1570
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline 		Thanks, I learned something new!
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Skyros, just in case you don't know - if you click on the "Post #: xy" button in the lower right corner of each post, it will give you the direct link to this particular post > allows copy&paste into other threads right "on target" .

post 23: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2182724

post 19: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2577288


(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 17
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 7/1/2013 2:54:47 PM   
margeorg

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 1/3/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Quixote

The ACMs need at least some fuel in port to work. Keeps things interesting at really small forward bases...


To be more precise, as far as I know the ACM needs to be FULLY FUELED , without major damage and disbanded at the port you want to maintain the minefield at. Just having fuel at the port is not sufficient.

_____________________________

Cheers
Martin

(in reply to Quixote)
Post #: 18
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 7/2/2013 2:35:50 AM   
Quixote


Posts: 773
Joined: 8/14/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

To be more precise, as far as I know the ACM needs to be FULLY FUELED , without major damage and disbanded at the port you want to maintain the minefield at. Just having fuel at the port is not sufficient.


Don't think you have to worry about being more precise - the "fully fueled" part isn't necessary. An ACM will happily keep doing it's job when disbanded in port even if it's only partially fueled. I haven't tested completely empty ACMs, or ACM damage levels, but I have tested this.

(in reply to margeorg)
Post #: 19
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 7/2/2013 2:44:01 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

I believe mine fields at start are determined by the size of the port. It was discussed a few years back as a work around in the code.

Found this in a search, see post 23

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2182052&mpage=1&key=Minefield%2Cstart



Hmmm. I thought mines were placed via the PWHexe file and number of them had no necessary connection to port size, other than the fact that the almighty creators tended to put more mines in larger ports than smaller in the PWHexe file.

_____________________________


(in reply to Skyros)
Post #: 20
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 7/2/2013 11:44:55 AM   
czert2

 

Posts: 508
Joined: 2/10/2013
Status: offline 		well i think it is 50 mines per port size. And i will love if they increase mines production AND implement some ways how to make mine warfare much more realistic - like say max 2 000 (from head, totaly open for disusion) per any hex (incuding atol islands), ability to lay mines where they were laid historicaly but game doesnt allow it now and finaly ability to create new port mines from drawing supply from base (and this limited only to ports with existing minefields).  Creating new in forward bases - use minelayers and for backwards areas...well you must expand to make them rear areas.

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 21
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 7/2/2013 12:03:07 PM   
margeorg

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 1/3/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Quixote

quote:

To be more precise, as far as I know the ACM needs to be FULLY FUELED , without major damage and disbanded at the port you want to maintain the minefield at. Just having fuel at the port is not sufficient.


Don't think you have to worry about being more precise - the "fully fueled" part isn't necessary. An ACM will happily keep doing it's job when disbanded in port even if it's only partially fueled. I haven't tested completely empty ACMs, or ACM damage levels, but I have tested this.



Hmmm,

was there a change to this in one of the latest betas? I also remember testing this a few months ago, and I found out that the ACM wouldn´t do it´s job if it was not fully fuled. I´m pretty sure about this also :)


_____________________________

Cheers
Martin

(in reply to Quixote)
Post #: 22
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 7/2/2013 1:49:44 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: czert2

well i think it is 50 mines per port size. And i will love if they increase mines production AND implement some ways how to make mine warfare much more realistic - like say max 2 000 (from head, totaly open for disusion) per any hex (incuding atol islands), ability to lay mines where they were laid historicaly but game doesnt allow it now and finaly ability to create new port mines from drawing supply from base (and this limited only to ports with existing minefields).  Creating new in forward bases - use minelayers and for backwards areas...well you must expand to make them rear areas.


Read the thread links provided above to see why your dreams are never going to be met. And how it can already be done as is.

* Mines created from supply expenditure, never going to happen.
* Minefields in the thousands surrounding atolls, never going to happen.
* Change the map to create the historical locations where minefields were laid, never going to happen.
* Lay new minefields, already exists in game.
* Write new code to create a mine stacking hex limit, never going to happen.
* Want to increase mine production, use the editor. Good luck in finding a PBEM opponent who experienced classical WITP minefields and is willing to go through the same experience again in AE.

Alfred

(in reply to czert2)
Post #: 23
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 7/2/2013 4:11:17 PM   
Skyros


Posts: 1570
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

I believe mine fields at start are determined by the size of the port. It was discussed a few years back as a work around in the code.

Found this in a search, see post 23

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2182052&mpage=1&key=Minefield%2Cstart



Hmmm. I thought mines were placed via the PWHexe file and number of them had no necessary connection to port size, other than the fact that the almighty creators tended to put more mines in larger ports than smaller in the PWHexe file.

I can't find the thread where I saw it, but it was indicated that ports above received minefields automatically at the start of the game. It was part of a discussion where some one pointed out that mines were at a port that never had them. It was discussed that this was done out of simplicity since the exact amount and location of fields would be hard to determine. That's all I can recall, getting old ya,now. Will look again tonight maybe ai will get lucky with my searches.

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 24
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 7/2/2013 4:48:08 PM   
czert2

 

Posts: 508
Joined: 2/10/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: czert2

well i think it is 50 mines per port size. And i will love if they increase mines production AND implement some ways how to make mine warfare much more realistic - like say max 2 000 (from head, totaly open for disusion) per any hex (incuding atol islands), ability to lay mines where they were laid historicaly but game doesnt allow it now and finaly ability to create new port mines from drawing supply from base (and this limited only to ports with existing minefields).  Creating new in forward bases - use minelayers and for backwards areas...well you must expand to make them rear areas.


Read the thread links provided above to see why your dreams are never going to be met. And how it can already be done as is.

* Mines created from supply expenditure, never going to happen.
* Minefields in the thousands surrounding atolls, never going to happen.
* Change the map to create the historical locations where minefields were laid, never going to happen.
* Lay new minefields, already exists in game.
* Write new code to create a mine stacking hex limit, never going to happen.
* Want to increase mine production, use the editor. Good luck in finding a PBEM opponent who experienced classical WITP minefields and is willing to go through the same experience again in AE.

Alfred

1. maintaining minefields via supply was meaned as "workaround" which allow player more freedom of use of his minefield tenders ships.
2. well if limit will be 500 mines per atoll no problem with that, as writed im totaly opened to discusion.
3.well that was meaned not only to increse reality, but to justify increase in mine production too :)
4. yes, true.
5. im not code expert so no idea how hard or easy it will be, but this mainly to prevent "mines in pacific" if mine production will be increased (and yes i know i can use editor).
6. well my idea of increased mine production was to say 5x, not 20x :).

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 25
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 7/2/2013 8:00:57 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Good to see you back, Alfred.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 26
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 7/2/2013 9:00:30 PM   
Quixote


Posts: 773
Joined: 8/14/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: margeorg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Quixote

quote:

To be more precise, as far as I know the ACM needs to be FULLY FUELED , without major damage and disbanded at the port you want to maintain the minefield at. Just having fuel at the port is not sufficient.


Don't think you have to worry about being more precise - the "fully fueled" part isn't necessary. An ACM will happily keep doing it's job when disbanded in port even if it's only partially fueled. I haven't tested completely empty ACMs, or ACM damage levels, but I have tested this.



Hmmm,

was there a change to this in one of the latest betas? I also remember testing this a few months ago, and I found out that the ACM wouldn´t do it´s job if it was not fully fuled. I´m pretty sure about this also :)




I just ran the test below in stock, using the Marianas scenario. Partially fueled ACM disbanded in port. I ran 30 turns, no minefield degradation. Every other minefield in the scenario did suffer significant degradation, so it's not the scenario. Either one of us is wrong, or we've got an interesting bug.

Side note to czert2 - If you didn't play original WitP you wouldn't know, but mines could make that game unplayable at times when combined with CD guns. The devs did a great job re-balancing them for AE. May not be 100% historically accurate (nothing else is 100% after the first turn either) but the game flows a lot better now.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to margeorg)
Post #: 27
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 7/3/2013 11:07:30 AM   
czert2

 

Posts: 508
Joined: 2/10/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Quixote


quote:

ORIGINAL: margeorg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Quixote

quote:

To be more precise, as far as I know the ACM needs to be FULLY FUELED , without major damage and disbanded at the port you want to maintain the minefield at. Just having fuel at the port is not sufficient.


Don't think you have to worry about being more precise - the "fully fueled" part isn't necessary. An ACM will happily keep doing it's job when disbanded in port even if it's only partially fueled. I haven't tested completely empty ACMs, or ACM damage levels, but I have tested this.



Hmmm,

was there a change to this in one of the latest betas? I also remember testing this a few months ago, and I found out that the ACM wouldn´t do it´s job if it was not fully fuled. I´m pretty sure about this also :)




I just ran the test below in stock, using the Marianas scenario. Partially fueled ACM disbanded in port. I ran 30 turns, no minefield degradation. Every other minefield in the scenario did suffer significant degradation, so it's not the scenario. Either one of us is wrong, or we've got an interesting bug.

Side note to czert2 - If you didn't play original WitP you wouldn't know, but mines could make that game unplayable at times when combined with CD guns. The devs did a great job re-balancing them for AE. May not be 100% historically accurate (nothing else is 100% after the first turn either) but the game flows a lot better now.




True i didt played mines in pacific before, only AE, but as others told in another threads - so big limited mine warfare in AE is overkill (and it surely prevents mines in pacific), i just triing to find solution which will not be so big overkill.
3rd cause of loses caused to allies were mines, which is now imposible to simulate.

< Message edited by czert2 -- 7/3/2013 11:08:45 AM >

(in reply to Quixote)
Post #: 28
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 7/3/2013 12:38:31 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		So one ACM can maintain 150 mines? If fueled.

_____________________________

> What is the hardest thing in the universe?
> A diamond?
> No. 500 machine gun men on a mountain.

(in reply to czert2)
Post #: 29
RE: Maintaining Minefields - 7/3/2013 1:13:16 PM   
Shellshock


Posts: 533
Joined: 12/31/2010
From: U.S.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

So one ACM can maintain 150 mines? If fueled.


Provided it's not a smoking hulk--(less than 10% damage)-- yes.

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 30
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