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Resource Extraction Cap - 11/29/2011 10:59:01 PM   
Nedrear


Posts: 702
Joined: 10/29/2011
Status: offline 		In short:

- Four Mining Extractors or Luxury Extractors of tech level one will always give optimal yield in every mine per resource asteroid or planet but are less efficient through cap waste.
/// Efficiency (3): 1,13333$/100% ressource --- 2,26666$/50% ressource
/// Efficiency (4): 1,36$/100% ressource --- 2,72$/50% ressource
- Three Gas Extractors level one will give optimal yield on planets and in clouds and are practically as efficient with a limited cap waste of 20/420 = 4,8%.
/// Efficiency (2): 0.2357$/100% ressource --- 0.27$/50% ressource
/// Efficiency (3): 0.2475$/100% ressource --- 0.295$/50% ressource

These only apply on stations as ships got a REDUCED extraction!
The efficiency is for money oriented players which ressources are bought "of their hands". It "expects" the maintenance to be paid weekly. The longer the period the real maintenance goes the better the "risk" versions as the two converge (I don't know the real time for maintenance payments). The lower the percentage the worse the risk versions gets as the equation deverges.

Long story:

You get a resource tick after the station starts working and every 7 days afterwards. Resupply ships get them every two weeks! It will scale with the percentage which as a fact is also the extraction limit. Three mining devices will come to the maximum in the lower percentages 5-15% and really close to the maximum in 15-70%. Maximum is always reached with four mining devices per resource. And a planet with three mining resources needs still only four extractors and will yield as demanded all resources at the same time.
The extraction cap is the percentage. You can expect a yield of 80 per week on a 80% planet and 15 a week on a 15% planet. In case of gases the limit is four times the amount. A gas mine of 100% will yield up to 400 units but at the same extraction rate of 140 per extractor on tech level one. It is unimportant if cloud or planet!

Fact: One 3 yield mining device produces 30 units on 100% in a week, that means you need 3,33 extractors for perfect yield since 100% = 100 max is the extraction cap. Since the extraction scales with the quality % it will always be 3,33 extractors!

You can calculate the rest for the other extractors yourself and their tech level.

Conclusion: Mine planets which got the highest % in total. E.G. Two high 90% resources are a total extraction of 180 and a planet with 5 resources all 50% gives 250 yield. Of course deem only those resources important in your calculation which you really need. If you compare gases with mining resources always take four times the amount as their percentage as yield cap!

Race abilities:

Race abilities like industrious miners are applied on the result. E.G. one gas extractor on a 87% gas cloud or planet gives you 121.8 downgraded to 121 ressources which are multiplied by 1.1 for a 10% bonus and give the end result of 133.1 downgraded to 133.

The cap can't be shattered through race abilities!!

< Message edited by Nedrear -- 1/3/2012 2:53:38 PM >

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 11/29/2011 11:33:05 PM   
Bingeling

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for the data on this.

Now I just need a sense of time. And to know if AI mining bases has more than one resource - I think not (luxury and normal). Does this mean the ai will only get about 1/3rd of the available stuff in a 98% fuel cloud?

And if you are in testing mood. Will deploying a resupply ship in a gas cloud with a mine reduce the mine output?

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 11/29/2011 11:37:09 PM   
Nedrear


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< Message edited by Nedrear -- 11/30/2011 12:05:51 AM >

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 11/30/2011 12:06:19 AM   
Nedrear


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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 11/30/2011 12:34:46 AM   
Bingeling

 

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Status: offline 		Since I am daft...

On a poor resource, say 15%. 15 a week is the maximum output. But if you only got 1 extractor you will only get a fraction of the 15, right? So you always need at least 2 (you said 3 was surely enough for the low ones). Or do you only need multiple extractors for full benefit of good sources?

You say resupply ships only get a "refill" half as often. Does it get twice as much meaning it gets it normal share, but more at less frequent intervals? I notice that if you use AI designs, the resupply ship has 4 extractors and the gas mine only 1. So a resupply ship is really welcome in an area where you have only one fuel source.

And I was thinking maybe star bases have 2 extractors, and this would make them more relevant to use. And when checking I realize there is no AI designed star base. But if this is the case, it should mean that the inherited pirate bases are really good fuel sources. For us weirdo's that prefer to let the AI do designs to keep the playing field more level :)

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 11/30/2011 12:41:46 AM   
Nedrear


Posts: 702
Joined: 10/29/2011
Status: offline 		The 4 extraction in resupply pre designs is a bug. It should be 8 like in the station. It is only in pre-designs.
The tick comes every two weeks at ships and is only the same as a one amont station tick. That makes stations ALWAYS more capable.
One extractor on a 15% source in mining will give you:
30 * 0.15 = 4,5 per week of potential 15. I am not sure if 4 or 5 are granted.
Yes a gas mine or star base in a cloud should be more efficient, but they are stationary, the ship moves. The ship is reuseable on a frontline, the base not. 

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 11/30/2011 1:58:37 AM   
feelotraveller


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Status: offline 		Yum, thanks for the platter Nedrear.

It was more simple than I thought it might be.

Just a query on the mining ships though. You say it is a bug with the predesigns but when I design my own mining ships the design details screen gives them half the extraction rate (rounded down, presumably) of a station mining engine. Do you not get this, or is the information on this screen not correct?

You are certainly right about the predesigns being very weak though. In 1701 (yet to play 1702) my initial mining ship went off at the start of the game to mine steel from a 16% moon in my home system. 10 years later I found it (after having checked up on it from time to time) stuck at that moon, out of fuel, yet not having filled its single cargo hold with steel. As far as I could tell it was going to stay that way forever. And I can't give it an order.

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 11/30/2011 2:35:16 AM   
Nedrear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller

Just a query on the mining ships though. You say it is a bug with the predesigns but when I design my own mining ships the design details screen gives them half the extraction rate (rounded down, presumably) of a station mining engine. Do you not get this, or is the information on this screen not correct?


I might have jumped on a "exploit" to be normal... I don't know. When I design a gas mining ship from a previous gas mining station all extractors get the 8 instead the 4 in the design window... of course this might be a "problem on screen". In that case it is only a bad management of the ship design not checking back if the design was switched between ship and station.

IF this applies, than a ship with one tick two weeks and half extraction would be 1/4 the effectiveness of a station, improving its worth again.

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 11/30/2011 2:53:46 AM   
feelotraveller


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Status: offline 		Ah, okay. I would regard that as an exploit but each to their own.

On ships designed without your trick it's worth noting that they can pull out half the resources a station can by having twice as many extractors. So the cap actually helps them out comparatively if you can build big enough.

Seeing my starting mining ship with an extraction rate of 1 just wants to make me cry, though. It is particularly bad because it risks running out of fuel (no energy collectors) before filling its cargo and getting stuck. Seriously thinking I will just scrap it at the beginning of the game. It WILL head to a location under 20% sooner or later and usually sooner...

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 11/30/2011 4:57:34 AM   
balto

 

Posts: 1123
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Can either of you dumb this down for me? Are you saying I should jack up the number of extractors on my bases? If so, what is the exact number?

I realize that I may be totally missing the point.

Sorry, I am not smart enought to grasp this, please give me a dumb-guy version.

< Message edited by balto -- 11/30/2011 5:31:11 AM >

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 11/30/2011 5:11:14 AM   
feelotraveller


Posts: 1040
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline 		Play the game the way you want, Balto, that's the point.

Let's see. Going on Nedrear's figures you never want more than 4 mining engines or 2 gas extractors (or 3 if in clouds) on your bases. This is a change from ROTS where more mining components meant quicker extraction, always. Do you want more than one? Who knows. Its like asking what is the exact number of shields to put on a ship.

Ships only extract half as fast, and only at half the rate (maybe less given rounding) than bases. So up to 7 engines or 3 extractors (5 if in clouds) can do some good. Beyond this point you are just wasting space/maintenance.

Hope that helps.

Edit: this is all using the starting mining rate. Numbers will change (i.e. get lower) with improved mining technology.

< Message edited by feelotraveller -- 11/30/2011 5:12:25 AM >

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 11/30/2011 5:28:47 AM   
balto

 

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From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Excellent. Considering I consider Gas Mining Stations to be gold (I could be wrong), I invest a lot in Gas Mining Station Shields and Armor (buying time for my Ships to rescue them). I therefore will increase the Gas Extract to 2. THANK YOU!!!!

< Message edited by balto -- 11/30/2011 5:29:16 AM >

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 11/30/2011 4:20:37 PM   
Bingeling

 

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Status: offline 		I have read some of your posts, and to me it seems like you optimize a bit too hard. I am not so much worried about the AI designed mining stuff - the enemy run with them too.

I would not call it exploits, but it of course goes towards that concept when the AI is far from optimal and you choose to optimize.

Planting contested mining bases and selling them for huge sums - that was an exploit. Just to set the line somewhere. I am not sure what my getting 100M worth of tech for declaring war on the Ancient Guardians was. Probably an exploit, but it was a necessity for survival

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 11/30/2011 4:41:53 PM   
w1p

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 11/23/2011
Status: offline 		awesome info, thanks <3

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 11/30/2011 4:51:13 PM   
feelotraveller


Posts: 1040
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline 		Not an exploit as such, more an abuse of an unbalanced game mechanic.

Is adding extra extractors? I don't think so. Note that I do this... sometimes. If we were intended never to have more than one mining engine they would not stack - there are enough components of that nature. I think that the extraction cap is to stop people really abusing this - like for instance sticking 10 extractors on a base on one of the ultra-rares. I've never done that. In fact in ROTS the most extractors/engines of one type I ever used on a base was 3. I experimented last Legends game with using 4 for critical early steel mines but I won't be bothering with that again.

No promises that I won't stick 5 extractors on a resupply ship sometime though.

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 11/30/2011 11:36:29 PM   
Nedrear


Posts: 702
Joined: 10/29/2011
Status: offline 		Updated race abilities in highlighted letters

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 12/1/2011 1:47:22 AM   
feelotraveller


Posts: 1040
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Status: offline 		Ah, another way the racial abilities have become more important/powerful.

Good work Nedrear.

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 12/1/2011 2:23:46 AM   
Nedrear


Posts: 702
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Status: offline 		Reworked... all gases got the double cap. Shame on me for this oversight. It should be complete now though. The planet size is unimportant!

< Message edited by Nedrear -- 12/1/2011 3:09:01 AM >

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 12/1/2011 7:04:06 PM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
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From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline 		AW rats! My size 600 mining ships are just a waste of breath with ten extractors now! I am SO glad I read this! It WAS an exploit, but I am still sorry to see it go lol.

Lonnie Courtney Clay


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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 12/8/2011 5:50:30 AM   
balto

 

Posts: 1123
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Not sure what just happened? Are we still loading two Gas Extractors on the Gas Mining Stations, and 3 on the Gas Ships?

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 12/8/2011 12:55:45 PM   
Trifler

 

Posts: 115
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Status: offline 		Great info! I've been running two Mining Engines or one Gas Extractor so they'd both have a rating of 6, and thus be on equal footing, but after reading this, it makes a lot more sense.

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 12/8/2011 1:24:22 PM   
Nedrear


Posts: 702
Joined: 10/29/2011
Status: offline 		Well I too read about the "gas extractor improvement" and find it useless as this one was powerful enough. MAYBE you need now less. Maybe not. I don't use the Beta Patches and wait for the first official one.

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 12/8/2011 1:39:21 PM   
feelotraveller


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Status: offline 		Now I will never get to use 5 extractors on a resupply ship.

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 12/9/2011 10:53:22 PM   
Nedrear


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Status: offline 		Gas extractor efficiency revised for 1.7.0.6. Three extractors are now an ordinary solution instead of a financial risk on low percentage worlds with a loss of only 4,6% through cap waste. Mines are unchanged and are supposed to be three for efficiency and four for yield.

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 12/10/2011 7:42:37 AM   
feelotraveller


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Status: offline 		Gee you're quick.

The 'race abilities' example needs updating to reflect the increased extractor rate.

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 12/10/2011 10:39:04 AM   
Nedrear


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Status: offline 		Done

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 12/10/2011 4:28:22 PM   
balto

 

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Status: offline 		Related topic. Does it help to throw on a Mining thing onto Spaceports? If so, how many?

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RE: Ressource Extraction Cap - 12/10/2011 5:55:31 PM   
Nedrear


Posts: 702
Joined: 10/29/2011
Status: offline 		Same rule and amount applies (4 for yield, 3 for efficiency in concern to money / ressource). Don't forget the commerce center to sell it. Difference is: You pay for the mine if it is a state spaceport, not the private sector.

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Resource Extraction Cap - 12/12/2011 1:33:59 AM   
balto

 

Posts: 1123
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From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Wow, excellent point about the State vs Private paying for it.

Is this a correct follow-on to what you are saying -- if you have a colony at a place where there is Loros, Xentaba, or Korabbian.., maybe you should pile on lots of Extractors to the Space Port. Else, maybe leave all the mining to the commercial?


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RE: Resource Extraction Cap - 12/12/2011 6:09:32 AM   
Nedrear


Posts: 702
Joined: 10/29/2011
Status: offline 		That's moronic. The source can only mined the same amount it got. 30% Korribean spice will yield 30 a week with 4 extractors on tech level 1 and 27 with 3.
Check your colony... it is likely they already mine the cap.

< Message edited by Nedrear -- 12/12/2011 6:10:10 AM >

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