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Breakthrough in France! - 2/15/2014 9:52:55 PM

alexvand

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For this first time I have successfully broken the French lines early in 1940. I attacked Netherlands and Belgium during the winter, which allowed the French to advance. But I attacked during the bad weather with lots of divs and militia, taking losses but also killing French and weakening their lines. Then a double move let me launch a clear weather attack. This breakthrough didn't even need a O-Chit! The only face down German Land unit is Von Bock and we've only had one impulse of May/June!

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RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/16/2014 7:58:57 AM

AxelNL

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On to Paris!
Next goal: early Barbarossa?

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RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/16/2014 8:16:53 AM

Orm

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Looks to me that France can regroup and delay advance into Paris for a while longer. But things look great for Germany. And if you can save both offensives and capture Paris during the summer I do recommend turning towards USSR in '41.

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RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/16/2014 4:10:19 PM

alexvand

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Well, an impulse of bad weather and a mini-pass by the allies allowed the French to recover. The Germans only had one impluse after their breakthrough, but they are still in decent shape, not having spent any Ochits yet, but not quite the spectacular crushing of France like I had hoped.

I am planning on trying to take Gibraltar and go for a 42 Barb.

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< Message edited by alex_van_d -- 2/16/2014 5:10:37 PM >

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RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/16/2014 4:20:53 PM

Orm

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Looks to me that you have the opportunity to kill of Gort.

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 5

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/17/2014 3:32:27 AM

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Congrats Alex, not easy breaking through 2 and 3 French units on the border, I know, tried it many times in beta testing Fascist Tide.

Below I am showing an alternative attack that was very popular in computer 3rd Reich. I rarely have Italy declare war this early, but I did it here to show an alternate attack on France. During the German inpulses while attacking Poland, Denmark and The Netherlands I used the rail phase to move German combat units to the Northwest part of Italy with combat units that I could spare.

In many cases the German units are so plentiful they are climbing all over each other. I do not like the Vichy ruling as I like to conquer Spain, even though I know I can collapse Vichy by invading it.

When you look you notice it is the 5th impulse of turn 2 the Nov/Dec 1939 impulse. Poland is conquered as is Denmark and the Netherlands.

I will in the next decent weather phase smash into Belgium with overwhelming power, take a good look and you will notice France has a major problem, does France start sending much needed units on their border to stop a very powerful invasion of Germans and Italian combat units backed up by two German HQ's units pouring into southern France? France is doomed, there is no hope.

Not trying to take away from your accomplishment Alex just showing an alternative way of crushing France.

Bo

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< Message edited by bo -- 2/17/2014 5:30:28 AM >

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RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/17/2014 4:29:03 AM

michaelbaldur

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you have made the common mistake of putting garrisons in the maginot line.

you place your cav and mot in the line. they have the movement to retreat and die in front of Paris.

garrisons will never make it back to Paris.

France want Germany to kill all its units. more attacks-more chance of a bad roll.

more attacks- less Vichy units

does Garrison you leave alive in the line when Germany takes Paris, can be used to hold hexes against France, and (as I understand it) can suppress partisans in France

< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 2/17/2014 5:31:12 AM >

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

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RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/17/2014 4:38:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

you have made the common mistake of putting garrisons in the maginot line.

you place your cav and mot in the line. they have the movement to retreat and die in front of Paris.

garrisons will never make it back to Paris.

France want Germany to kill all its units. more attacks-more chance of a bad roll.

more attacks- less Vichy units

does Garrison you leave alive in the line when Germany takes Paris, can be used to hold hexes against France, and (as I understand it) can suppress partisans in France

I never make common mistakes I just make big ones, michael I have tried every combination you could think of over the last two years, just showing an alternate way of defeating France, besides I like wiping out anything French

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 2/17/2014 5:40:01 AM >

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RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/17/2014 1:54:40 PM

alexvand

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How did you get through those mountains?

As the French you have two Mnt units, then throw a div or two on top and it doesn't take too many units to slow down the Axis on that front. If you see the Germans sending their units that way you can put some of your worst units in those mountains where they get doubled.

I just don't see it being easy.

Mind you, I've never tried it either.

Something to keep in mind for my next run through!

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Post #: 9

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/17/2014 3:24:23 PM

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Ah Alex nothing is easy in live or war

Remember France sets up before Germany and that setup by France is the determing factor to how I might attack France. Even if the French Player decides to put a few units around Marseilles and Nice that is alright with me as it has to weaken the French border setup.

In one of the impulses for the Germans while attacking Poland in turn one, in the rail phase I can send strong units by rail into Genoa Turin and Milan, that is if I have Italy declare war on France very early in impulse one of the first turn. If my intentions were to attack both in the west and the south at the same time I would also have strong Italian ground and air units in that area to initiate the attack.

I am also showing a flyout of the port of Genoa with two Italian transports there. the reason for that is if like you said a few French divisions can hold up the invasion in the mountains which is a strong possibility, if that happens then I would rail the units into Genoa and proceed to invade by sea any of the three open hexes west of Marseilles.

Remember I am playing myself and I guess I lean toward the Germans slightly, I test things constantly, different ways to attack and defend, not all work because of weather and the roll of the dice. In Fascist tide I do not use the amphid rule that is why those transports in Genoa can be used for seaborne invasions, but I do use it in Day of Infanmy, Guadalcanal and Global war. Again any French unit moving southwest is a good thing for the German units in Belguim after Belgium falls.

Might as well do something with those units because they sure get in each others way in Belgium. Again remember this just an alternate way of attacking France, not full proof.

To answer michael's comment about garrisons in the Maginot line I agree and disagree with him. The garrson units IMHO are only good for one thing defending a hex. I do not like putting faster moving unit in the forts because they seem to get stuck there and are of no use to defend Paris. Just an opinion. Alex that is why this game is such a pleasure to play, the possiblities or probalities are enormous.

Bo

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< Message edited by bo -- 2/17/2014 5:08:39 PM >

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RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/17/2014 5:40:53 PM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d

How did you get through those mountains?

As the French you have two Mnt units, then throw a div or two on top and it doesn't take too many units to slow down the Axis on that front. If you see the Germans sending their units that way you can put some of your worst units in those mountains where they get doubled.

I just don't see it being easy.

Mind you, I've never tried it either.

Something to keep in mind for my next run through!

I thought France begun with one MTN.

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/17/2014 6:19:12 PM

Centuur

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Yes, it does...

Now Bo, where is the BEF? It should be in France (or Belgium). And second: if the Germans start railmoving there major forces into Italy, why didn't the French railmove units from the Belgian border to Nice and Lyons? If they get doubled in the mountains, there is no way the Germans can go through the Alps.

If there aren't any British troops in France, France will die very, very fast...

Oh, and here is something else. The most important hex in France isn't Paris... It's Toulouse! So get Gamelin back to it's senses and put two large combat factor units and a division into that city and there is no way France will get conquered easily.

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Peter

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RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/17/2014 10:35:15 PM

michaelbaldur

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quote:

he most important hex in France isn't Paris... It's Toulouse! So get Gamelin back to it's senses and put two large combat factor units and a division into that city and there is no way France will get conquered easily.

units in Toulouse is just a gift to Vichy

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 13

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/18/2014 12:35:50 AM

alexvand

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I thought France begun with one MTN.

They do.

I always build the second one as soon as possible. Expensive, but great for slowing down any efforts in the mountains to the south, and when things really get rough you move those to units into Toulouse. That makes the final hex to conquer France rather tough.

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Post #: 14

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/18/2014 12:36:57 AM

alexvand

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Bo,

It's always interesting to see how others play it.

I always play with the Amphib rule, I see that playing without it would give the Germans more options on the southern front.

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Post #: 15

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/18/2014 2:01:08 AM

michaelbaldur

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why conquest ?????

it is easier to Vichy
you get more production
you get a buffer zone of Vichy territorial
the fleet

but most imported you keep France resources out of allied hands (Syria, Algeria and Senegal)

in the games I have seen we keep Vichy alive until they have build a offensive (15 saved BP) that should take 5-8 turns

by then USA is almost in the war, so just wait until the war is declared, then the collapse is free.

so when you conquer, you give the allies a fleet, more resources and you loss production

< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 2/18/2014 3:03:02 AM >

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to alexvand)

Post #: 16

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/18/2014 3:03:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d

Bo,

It's always interesting to see how others play it.

I always play with the Amphib rule, I see that playing without it would give the Germans more options on the southern front.

Hi alex

I normally play with the amphib rule, as a beta tester I try many different things, different attacks different optional rules etc. over and over. I never go deep into a scenario because I try so many differnt ways of doing things.

I personally have never tried the southern invasion until I read your post about how difficult it is to break the French border line, so I decided to use the old 3rd Reich ruse of invading through Italy and truthfully it seemed to work very well now of course I am playing myself which is a tough way to play.

I have never played the board game so I am not really familiar whether to conquer all of France or use Vichy as to what the pros and cons might be of either action. I read the comments about units in the Maginot line and the Vichy situation by my esteemed beta testing peers but I would rather of had their opinion about the southern invasion and whether they ever tried it or not, not what units should be in the Maginot line.

Also the BEF comment has no validity when I am showing you another attack variation that I had just put together rather quickly, but I have learned over the years nothing will change in that area

So I have to grin and bear it

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RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/18/2014 11:57:18 AM

alexvand

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

why conquest ?????

it is easier to Vichy
you get more production
you get a buffer zone of Vichy territorial
the fleet

but most imported you keep France resources out of allied hands (Syria, Algeria and Senegal)

in the games I have seen we keep Vichy alive until they have build a offensive (15 saved BP) that should take 5-8 turns

by then USA is almost in the war, so just wait until the war is declared, then the collapse is free.

so when you conquer, you give the allies a fleet, more resources and you loss production

The only reason I know to go for conquest is if you want to go through Spain to get Gibraltar. Otherwise Vichy seems to always be better to me.

(in reply to michaelbaldur)

Post #: 18

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/18/2014 3:08:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

why conquest ?????

it is easier to Vichy
you get more production
you get a buffer zone of Vichy territorial
the fleet

but most imported you keep France resources out of allied hands (Syria, Algeria and Senegal)

in the games I have seen we keep Vichy alive until they have build a offensive (15 saved BP) that should take 5-8 turns

by then USA is almost in the war, so just wait until the war is declared, then the collapse is free.

so when you conquer, you give the allies a fleet, more resources and you loss production

The only reason I know to go for conquest is if you want to go through Spain to get Gibraltar. Otherwise Vichy seems to always be better to me.

I just read annual 98 again for Germany and the powers that be all feel the most important hex 0f the 73,000 hexes in the game is hex 73. 18. Now I wonder what hex that is

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 2/18/2014 4:10:13 PM >

(in reply to alexvand)

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RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/18/2014 3:31:40 PM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

why conquest ?????

it is easier to Vichy
you get more production
you get a buffer zone of Vichy territorial
the fleet

but most imported you keep France resources out of allied hands (Syria, Algeria and Senegal)

in the games I have seen we keep Vichy alive until they have build a offensive (15 saved BP) that should take 5-8 turns

by then USA is almost in the war, so just wait until the war is declared, then the collapse is free.

so when you conquer, you give the allies a fleet, more resources and you loss production

The only reason I know to go for conquest is if you want to go through Spain to get Gibraltar. Otherwise Vichy seems to always be better to me.

I just read annual 98 again for Germany and the powers that be all feel the most important hex 0f the 73,000 hexes in the game is hex 73. 18. Now I wonder what hex that is

Bo

The answer is always Gibraltar.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 20

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/18/2014 5:25:12 PM

Centuur

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From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

why conquest ?????

it is easier to Vichy
you get more production
you get a buffer zone of Vichy territorial
the fleet

but most imported you keep France resources out of allied hands (Syria, Algeria and Senegal)

in the games I have seen we keep Vichy alive until they have build a offensive (15 saved BP) that should take 5-8 turns

by then USA is almost in the war, so just wait until the war is declared, then the collapse is free.

so when you conquer, you give the allies a fleet, more resources and you loss production

The only reason I know to go for conquest is if you want to go through Spain to get Gibraltar. Otherwise Vichy seems to always be better to me.

I just read annual 98 again for Germany and the powers that be all feel the most important hex 0f the 73,000 hexes in the game is hex 73. 18. Now I wonder what hex that is

Bo

The answer is always Gibraltar.

Which is also the reason why Toulouse is the most important hex in France... A large French garrison in the place when Paris is Axis means that they will have problems to go into Spain. Toulouse is a very difficult hex to take. Sure, those units will become Vichy, but that's better than to get a conquered France...

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Post #: 21

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/18/2014 5:39:29 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

why conquest ?????

it is easier to Vichy
you get more production
you get a buffer zone of Vichy territorial
the fleet

but most imported you keep France resources out of allied hands (Syria, Algeria and Senegal)

in the games I have seen we keep Vichy alive until they have build a offensive (15 saved BP) that should take 5-8 turns

by then USA is almost in the war, so just wait until the war is declared, then the collapse is free.

so when you conquer, you give the allies a fleet, more resources and you loss production

The only reason I know to go for conquest is if you want to go through Spain to get Gibraltar. Otherwise Vichy seems to always be better to me.

I just read annual 98 again for Germany and the powers that be all feel the most important hex 0f the 73,000 hexes in the game is hex 73. 18. Now I wonder what hex that is

Bo

The answer is always Gibraltar.

warspite1

I'm confused?? I thought the answer was always boobs.

_____________________________

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RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/18/2014 6:08:20 PM

Orm

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From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

why conquest ?????

it is easier to Vichy
you get more production
you get a buffer zone of Vichy territorial
the fleet

but most imported you keep France resources out of allied hands (Syria, Algeria and Senegal)

in the games I have seen we keep Vichy alive until they have build a offensive (15 saved BP) that should take 5-8 turns

by then USA is almost in the war, so just wait until the war is declared, then the collapse is free.

so when you conquer, you give the allies a fleet, more resources and you loss production

The only reason I know to go for conquest is if you want to go through Spain to get Gibraltar. Otherwise Vichy seems to always be better to me.

I just read annual 98 again for Germany and the powers that be all feel the most important hex 0f the 73,000 hexes in the game is hex 73. 18. Now I wonder what hex that is

Bo

The answer is always Gibraltar.

warspite1

I'm confused?? I thought the answer was always boobs.

He said boobs... fnarr, fnarr.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 23

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/18/2014 6:10:40 PM

warspite1

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From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

why conquest ?????

it is easier to Vichy
you get more production
you get a buffer zone of Vichy territorial
the fleet

but most imported you keep France resources out of allied hands (Syria, Algeria and Senegal)

in the games I have seen we keep Vichy alive until they have build a offensive (15 saved BP) that should take 5-8 turns

by then USA is almost in the war, so just wait until the war is declared, then the collapse is free.

so when you conquer, you give the allies a fleet, more resources and you loss production

The only reason I know to go for conquest is if you want to go through Spain to get Gibraltar. Otherwise Vichy seems to always be better to me.

I just read annual 98 again for Germany and the powers that be all feel the most important hex 0f the 73,000 hexes in the game is hex 73. 18. Now I wonder what hex that is

Bo

The answer is always Gibraltar.

warspite1

I'm confused?? I thought the answer was always boobs.

He said boobs... fnarr, fnarr.

warspite1

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 24

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/18/2014 6:41:07 PM

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Ok you two boneheads let me in on the boobs thing please.

Bo

(in reply to alexvand)

Post #: 25

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/18/2014 7:00:41 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

Ok you two boneheads let me in on the boobs thing please.

Bo

warspite1

I would encourage you to visit the General Discussion Forum from time to time. There are some excellent threads therein, where one can learn quite a lot.

There is also a thread called Australian Beauties - wherein no one is ever going to get brainier by reading or take part - but its a bit of harmless fun and, as the name suggests, is all about beautiful things - mostly women (Australian of otherwise) but also ships, aircraft etc.

A poster - currently banned - who frequented the GD forum quite a lot (and MWIF too), goes by the name of SLAAKMAN. Now SLAAK is, in all likelihood, one spanner short of a tool box, but he was responsible for perhaps the most astute piece of observation ever witnessed on the Matrix Forum. Ergo and theretofore:

The answer is always boobs.

Quite so...

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 26

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/19/2014 2:21:24 AM

Ur_Vile_WEdge

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Latecoming to the thread, but to alex_van_d, any estimate as to how many BP worth of units you lost cracking the French attacking without the O-Chit?

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 27

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/19/2014 12:00:14 PM

alexvand

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Latecoming to the thread, but to alex_van_d, any estimate as to how many BP worth of units you lost cracking the French attacking without the O-Chit?

None! Good die rolls at critical times really help!

Since I was going for conquest though, I've lost a lot more finishing off Lyons and Toulouse so in the end I didn't really save much.

(in reply to Ur_Vile_WEdge)

Post #: 28

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/19/2014 12:04:14 PM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
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From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Latecoming to the thread, but to alex_van_d, any estimate as to how many BP worth of units you lost cracking the French attacking without the O-Chit?

None! Good die rolls at critical times really help!

Since I was going for conquest though, I've lost a lot more finishing off Lyons and Toulouse so in the end I didn't really save much.

That's to bad. I think I'm going to avoid losses in France by declaring Vichy and than collapse it. Costly for US entry, but it speeds up the timetable a lot. Never done that in a real game, so I'm curious on how it will end up in the AAR...

_____________________________

Peter

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Post #: 29

RE: Breakthrough in France! - 2/19/2014 2:23:38 PM

markb50k

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@Centuur,

I've done the Vichy/collapse strategy in my own games, although I did it as a test for my AAR, and didn't go through with it.

Its tricky, and depending on rolls could cost little in terms of accelerating US Entry.

Keep in mind however, that this gambit, can include Japan claiming Indochina and the DOW of Spain. Throw all of those together in quick succession, and there is little chance US Entry doesn't get a healthy bump.

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 30